I was told specifically by the principal that it was school policy that work missed due to disciplinary out of school suspension cannot be made up. Which is weird, because if they get IN-school suspension, they do all their work for full credit while they are in there.
It doesn’t make much sense, does it?
I got the story from Andrew again, so there’s a little more.
He claims that this other boy threw a dirt-clod at him at recess, which hit his foot. He then in turn picked up a pebble and threw it at the boy (so it wasn’t initially a game as I was led to believe originally). He missed, boy throws rock back at Andrew. They throw this same rock at each other a couple more times and then boy decides to grab a plastic jump rope and tries to whip Andrew with it.
Andrew says that the boy missed him mostly, but hit him with it once. He then told the boy “If I had my pocket knife, I’d cut your head off” and also “If I had an axe, I’d chop you into little pieces”. So, its a little more egregious than I was told over the phone because he mentions bringing a knife to school in a roundabout way. The pocket knife in question exists, he got it for selling the 3rd most popcorn in his Cub Scout pack.
So then Andrew decides to tell on this boy for starting everything (doh!), and then they call the boys into the office, and the story about the threat comes out.
Andrew also tells me that this boy and one of his friends routinely try to get him into trouble and are mean to him.
So I don’t know. I really think the school missed an opportunity here to have a “teaching moment” with both boys about “why we don’t throw things at each other” and “why we don’t say certain things even if we don’t mean it”, but that ship has sailed.
FWIW, both boys were made to apologize and shake hands over the whole ordeal.
ZT policies are a gilt-edged excuse for school administrations to avoid having to think or use common sense in any manner. Your son’s case is a perfect example. A rational human being would simply counsel him about appropriate language, but you have an administrator who would rather hide behind ZT and your son gets suspended for a day.
Personally, I’d sue the hell out of them over it, but that’s just me.
Zero tolerance policies seem harsh until the first child follows up on his theat and the rest of the parents come out screaming, “Why was nothing done.”
This is why these policies were adapted. Who would ever think a kid would make a threat and follow through on it. Well they do. Not very often but once is enough.
Your kid violated school policy, he got caught and now you want to get away with it.
This is a good life lesson for your son. Rules are arbitrary and when you get caught learn to wear it.
Look at it like getting a traffic tickets. We all get tickets. Sometimes they are justified sometimes they are not.
You have to look at it this way, rules are laws. You don’t like the law you don’t go online and complain about it. You DO something about it.
Are you now going to go to your school board meeting and try to get this zero tolerance policy changed? Or are you gonna sit back and do nothing?
Take the day off your son has and teach him, he violated a rule, rules can be modified and take action against what you don’t like.
Perhaps there is no hope in changing it. But this is a chance to teach your son you should at least try.
In the end we all get bad breaks, we all have things that happen to us that aren’t fair. But how we deal with this can often mean the difference between a person who learns how to cope and one who doesn’t
You feel your son was not dealt with fairly, perhaps he does too. Now is a chance to teach him while he’s young, about the times in life, he’s gonna have to wear a bad rap and how in the future, he’s gonna have to learn to play by the rules or to stand up and try to modify them.
Marxx, I never once said that I wanted to “get away with it” or that my son did nothing wrong. All I am saying is that if the other kid isn’t getting the same punishment for starting the whole deal, then I’m not sure that’s necessarily fair.
And I’m also saying that I think its bullshit that my sons grades have to suffer by not allowing him to turn in his school work for that day (tomorrow) that he would otherwise make up or be present to complete.
I have already had some interesting conversations with my boy about this, he knows he did something wrong, he understands he’s being punished and I certainly haven’t let him have a whiff of any of the concerns I am raising here.
I still maintain that this zero tolerance policy should be age-adjusted in some way. This was an opportunity for the school to deal with something in a way that could have benefitted my son’s sense of right and wrong by having say, the guidance counselor talk to both boys together about resolving conflict, not saying certain things even if you don’t mean them, etcetera.
This is exceptionally foolish. You do not punish the many for the crimes of the few. It defies the entire premise of our society’s legal system. It would be a tragedy if one child acted in a violent manner however that in no way justifies or makes it rational to mete out undeserved punishments upon the innocent. Punishing the innocent is simply unacceptable in our culture. It’s fear mongering to suggest otherwise.
That is aside from the insane fallacy that somehow punishing the innocent will actually serve to prevent the cruel and criminal behavior from that select minority. Are you really arguing that punishing idle threats as if they were real threats will somehow prevent real violence? What world do you live in?
Especially from an 8 year old second grader. My son didn’t mean what he was saying, he was saying it out of anger. It doesn’t make it right, but jeez…context sure gets lost within the confines of zero tolerance…
But here’s the thing - how can you, as a teacher, be sure it’s an idle threat? That it doesn’t escalate? Should you apply an age cut-off? Under 8 and it’s no big deal, over 8 and we have to address it more seriously? Maybe that already too old.
The use of a zero tolerance policy removes any doubt, any subjectivity, any favoritism or dropping of ones guard. That’s the point.
Dude, get a grip. It’s. one. day. He is not going to have enough assignments due on one day to make a difference in his grades. Chill.
And yeah, your son is only 8. But frankly, 8 is plenty old enough to know that you don’t escalate these situations, that you do NOT, ever, throw rocks at someone, and that saying things like that is just not okay. And c’mon, it’s not like he’s not been through umpty-billion lectures about “don’t say or do anything, just get an adult” since the time he was in pre-pre-school daycare. He did something, several things, that he knew good and well were wrong, and now he’s getting what is, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly minor punishment.
Yes, it’s not 100% even-steven fair that the other kid isn’t getting the exact same punishment. But without knowing what punishment the other kid is getting, I’m not prepared to say that it’s inequitable. Yes, the other kid hit your kid with a jump rope, and he instigated the incident by throwing the dirt clod. But your kid was the one who escalated the situation to hard projectiles, and your kid made some pretty graphic threats are disturbing coming from a kid that age. And he had plenty of opportunities to turn this over to the authorities rather than engaging further. Then there’s that whole pesky issue that most of the defenses you offer for your son, apply to the other kid as well. He’s only 8, and he was mad, and he didn’t mean anything by it.
I’d advise you to register your displeasure with the school, as you have already done, and then let it go.
CCL, I have, hence me ranting here instead of at the school. And FTR, I don’t even think I’ve really been ranting (much). Moreso expressing my bafflement over these types of policies and how they can be unjustified.
People are varied and situations are nuanced. Subjectivity is paramount. If teachers are unable to glean intent and use discretion in dealing out discipline then they should probably find another line of work, and at the very least should pass punishment along to the parents.
Zero tolerance increases the likelihood of escalation and it necessarily over punishes the innocent and under punishes the guilty. It’s a indefensible practice in all forms much like prescribed punishments and three strike policies.
I say again, do you really think zero tolerance lunacy would have served to prevent the incident in your link? Hell, the odds are so high as to be nearly certain that that school has zero tolerance as a policy. Citing incidents like that as justification for unjust policies is shortsighted fear mongering and it’s frankly intellectually bankrupt.
Would you rather school administration and teachers take a hands-off, not my problem approach devoid of consideration and understanding when dealing with the children in your link? Do you think that will prevent similar incidents?
I suppose we should just close our eyes and embrace the “not my problem” mentality instead, that’s safer. :rolleyes:
Zero tolerance policies are nothing new. When I was in elementary school, in the mid-70s, the policy was that there was no rock throwing. If you so much as picked up a rock, they disappeared you for a day or so. We were all freaked out by this - it was completely taboo to even get near a rock. Well, except for that one kid…Seriously, I can remember the boy’s name that picked up a little stone and chucked it at another kid.
The part where these kids are pelting each other with rocks is much more shocking to me than the threats.
Yeah. If this had been me, it wouldn’t have mattered what kind of threats I’d made or what kind of punishment the school meted out, because my mother would have nuked me from orbit as soon as she heard about the rock-throwing.
Well, maybe we grew up in a parallel universe, because that wasn’t my experience as a child at all (not that rock throwing was in any way condoned, but I also had capital punishment back then, too. Seeing the swiss-cheese-holed paddle was pretty much enough for me).
Nowadays its all about verbal threats, meant or otherwise. Thanks, Columbine and other copycat offenders.
These types of measures were never necessary before. Its sad that it has come to this, because despite what any of you may believe, I felt in my heart, knowing my son, that this would have been an excellent opportunity for the school administrators to corral the two of these miscreants and give them a life lesson, the type of lesson that school counselors and administrators USED to dole out in conjunction with or in lieu of such a harsh punishment, and that children of the age of my son would respond well to that.
Perhaps they suspended him over this threat because he said “if I had MY knife.” Combined with the fact that he was throwing rocks? That’s the only thing I can think of. And no, I’m not condoning ZT policies, just guessing why this might have been a little alarming to them.
However, as far as your son earning a “life lesson” from this, what’s to stop you from doing that? Surely he’s not going to get a pass? (For the rock throwing, naturally? Eight is old enough to know better.)
(Although I do hope those jump ropes weren’t the kind the school had back when I was a kid – those hard plastic beaded ones. You missed ONE jump, and good GOD, the welts they left. They were more like scourging whips!)
My daughter got suspended for a week from HS for bringing a paring knife to cut her apple. There is nothing you can do. Been there and know how you feel…
There’s a reason Zero Tolerance laws aren’t made in the real world. Once people become adults, they realize they don’t have to put up with their bullshit. Hey, let’s pick Georgia for an example. Their traffic laws are some of the harshest in the US. Under state law, first offenders can face up to a $1,000 fine and a year in prison for any moving violation. That means going 21 mph in a school zone, running a stop-sign, driving with a suspended license, not signaling to change lanes or drunk driving. Instead of up to a $1000, imagine if it mandatory and apply it to every state. Along with the year in prison.
Somehow I don’t think that would last too long. Schools are run more like prisons than places of learning.
ZT cuts out all the bullshit back and forth negotiating/fighting between the perpetrator’s parents, the victim’s parents, and the school board while they try to agree on a punishment that fits the crime.
Maybe we should pump some more money into creating an entire grade school court system with judges and jurys.
Then everyone can go back and forth for a couple of weeks.
“Timmy Smith did the same thing last year and he only got detention!”
“Yeah, but Timmy set ‘cut’ not ‘kill’!”
“Well Sally Jones got 2 days suspension!”
“But she’s 9, Junior is only 8!”
“But they were both born in the same year!”
“What about that Jenny Brown? She only brought a 3” paring knife?"
“But Jill Green brought a switch blade!”
“Yeah, but it only had a 3” blade, so what’s the difference?"
“But my little Johnny is an honors student!”
“But he was smiling when he threatened her!”
“I don’t know, it kind of looked like a scowl.”
“I didn’t ‘throw’ the rock, I just sort of ‘underhand tossed it’.”
“He put a gun to her head and said ‘you’re dead’.”
“It was only a small green squirt gun!”
“But someone said it was dark green.”
“How big was it?”
“Yeah, because Billy got expelled with a 6” red dart gun and he’s only 10 while Maggie got detention with a 8" yellow nerf gun and she only 9!"
“But Maggie was only pointing it at his chest not his head.”
That was a pretty dumb thing to do. If you know that these strict rules are in place, why would you (or your child) deliberately break them? There is something you can do - cut the apple up before school and leave the knife at home. It’s not that hard. I can understand not agreeing with the rules and trying to get them changed, but it’s pretty ridiculous to knowingly break the rule and then be surprised when there are consequences.
Yep no zero tolerance rules in the real world, tell the cop that you were speeding because you were late for work and he’ll let you off with no penalty.
Likewise tell him that you were driving over the legal blood/alcohol level because you’d had a crap day at work and the law won’t punish you.
Beat someone into pulp because they insulted your team,yep it was just high spirits on your part.
In the real world there is zero tolerance as to whether enforce laws or not but there are various degrees of punishment.
All responsible parents believe that kids should not be bullies or act anti socially, and those that do should receive some sort of discipline,especially those bad kids at the school or the ones that live down the street.
Except that its very unfair when our own, normally well behaved children, get punished alongside the “bad” kids when all they were doing was acting like children do and/or weren’t even aware that what they were doing was wrong.
Or what they were doing was only youthful high spirits.
Its thinking like this that causes such shock, horror and unbelief to his/her parents,when later on in their teens the dutiful kid who is so polite and well behaved around his family; is arrested for a serious crime when out unsupervised with members of his peer group.
Grade A student from decent family found guilty of etc.etc.