# Schools should teach children Critical Thinking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812 "2009-08-26T20:31:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/61 "2009-08-27T19:30:33Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > There’ll be a price to pay though for a society dominated by critical reasoning: those poor nigerian scammers, televangelists, psychics hotlines, peddlers of phony penis enlargement pills, and the entire bottled water industry will find themselves out of work. 😃 Just like everybody employed by the calculator and computer industry did, since schools teach math? Just like how nobody ever made any money selling a word processor that corrects spelling and grammar, since schools teach those? I think schools teaching critical thinking would be a good idea, but you have to have realistic expectations for what it would accomplish. Not every teacher of critical thinking is going to be a great teacher with a passion for the subject, and not every student is going to learn everything taught in the class and retain it for the rest of their lives. Just like it is with every other subject that schools teach. A required class in critical thinking might be a good thing for some students, but realistically it’s not going to drive all scammers out of business. > [@begbert2](#): > > Is there “right wing” critical thinking? (That isn’t a deliberate misnomer or joke, I mean.) I don’t think there is. There’s certainly selective application of critical thinking. It’s quite common and natural for people to look harder for flaws in logic that supports something they disagree with than they do with logic that supports something more appealing to them. This is, of course, not limited to right-wingers. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/62 "2009-08-27T19:31:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > WHY do you think “critical thinking” classes are essential? **I infer** it’s because you think America is filled with stupid rednecks who’ve been brainwashed by their narrow-minded, religious, conservative families, and you think schools have a duty to undo the alleged damage these parents have done, and reprogram their kids. Your inference is your business. You hijack the discussion by calling into question the motives of one of the discussants. If you had taken a class in critical thinking, you would not have dropped this schoolboy clanger. Did they not teach this stuff in L&R when you went to CC? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/63 "2009-08-27T20:05:24Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Your inference is your business. You hijack the discussion by calling into question the motives of one of the discussants. If you had taken a class in critical thinking, you would not have dropped this schoolboy clanger. > > Did they not teach this stuff in L&R when you went to CC? 🙂 The motives of the discussants here are highly relevant. The motives of ANYONE proposing a major change in school policy should be questioned. THAT’S part of critical thinking, too. When Reverend Billy Bob Fundy comes to a public school making the reasonable-sounding request that the school teach Intelligent Design, your B.S. detector goes off, as well it should. You suspect, rightly, that behind his reasonable sounding words lies an agenda. He wants schools teaching creationism, and this is his back door approach to making that happen. I went to a Jesuit High School and an Ivy League college. I’ve forgotten more about critical thinking than you know. I’m all for it in theory- but I have a B.S. detector, too, and NOBODY here in favor of the idea is very good at hiding his agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/64 "2009-08-27T20:20:39Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Well, it’s fair to point out that critical thinking often has had a political agenda. For just one example, the concept was widespread in Mao’s China - though it seems rather little of the criticism was directed at the system that organized the classes. > > I think you are very naive if you truly believe that in the real world such a class can be thoroughly objective, with an agenda uninfluenced by the beliefs of those who organize and administer it. I think that’s a problem that all education has to some extent. History, for example. What is on the curriculum must necesarily include some facts and not others. In that sense, it is impossible to avoid introducing the history book writers agenda. One could argue that teaching about the Holocaust is unfair because it excludes the Holocaust Deniers point of view. Teaching that the Earth is round is offensive to the Flat Earth Society. Evolution contradicts Young Earth Creationism. A First Aid course could offend Faith Healers, and so forth. Our public education system shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to avoid threatening every crazy belief system out there. Do the 42 fallacies I linked to have any particular agenda to them? I don’t see any mention of religion in them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/65 "2009-08-27T20:25:15Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Well, it’s fair to point out that critical thinking often has had a political agenda. For just one example, the concept was widespread in Mao’s China - though it seems rather little of the criticism was directed at the system that organized the classes. > > I think you are very naive if you truly believe that in the real world such a class can be thoroughly objective, with an agenda uninfluenced by the beliefs of those who organize and administer it. I prefer to think of it as being “starry-eyed” or “delusional”, not the pejorative term “naive”, thank you very much! Critical thinking _itself_ has no bias, obviously, aside from a bias against gullibility and irrationality. (Which I _suppose_ could be interpreted as a bias against the right wing, to those who actually believe that reality really does have a liberal bias.) There does of course remain the possibility that the teacher may _circumvent_ unbiased discussion in their class - as can and does happen in history and literature classes and the like. However, the only way this would _really_ be effective is if they took it so far as literally not teaching the course subject matter - if they didn’t take it that far, then the students would use their own critical thinking to silently decide that the teacher was biased and correct for it! I don’t know what happened in Mao’s China; was critical thinking taught, but discussion subsequently supressed, or was the term ‘critical thinking’ (or, uh, the chinese equivalent) merely used to add legitimacy to mindless and irrational partisan screed? > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > There’s certainly selective application of critical thinking. It’s quite common and natural for people to look harder for flaws in logic that supports something they disagree with than they do with logic that supports something more appealing to them. This is, of course, not limited to right-wingers. When taken to an extreme I call this ‘compartmentalization’ - people draw a bright white line around concepts and chunks of subject matter in their mind - _this_ stuff is above question. Many people who never _ever_ question certain things or sources of information function quite competently in jobs or activities that require a fair amount of analytical or argumentive skill and ability to question other sources. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/66 "2009-08-27T20:28:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I went to a Jesuit High School and an Ivy League college. I’ve forgotten more about critical thinking than you know. I’m all for it in theory- but I have a B.S. detector, too, and NOBODY here in favor of the idea is very good at hiding his agenda. Aparently I’m good at hiding \*my \*agenda, because you think my _motivation_ is to attack the right wing, specifically. As if I _don’t_ have something against nigerian scammers and truthers or something. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/67 "2009-08-27T20:33:09Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The motives of the discussants here are highly relevant. The motives of ANYONE proposing a major change in school policy should be questioned. THAT’S part of critical thinking, too. No, it’s not. It is fallacious, presumptuous, and orthogonal to the actual proposal itself. > [@](#): > > When Reverend Billy Bob Fundy comes to a public school making the reasonable-sounding request that the school teach Intelligent Design, your B.S. detector goes off, as well it should. You suspect, rightly, that behind his reasonable sounding words lies an agenda. He wants schools teaching creationism, and this is his back door approach to making that happen. Of course my bullshit detector goes off. That’s because intelligent design does not meet even the weakest criteria of science. My imputation of Billy Bob Fundy’s motives are orthogonal. Fundy’s position can be dismissed on its own demerits. > [@](#): > > I went to a Jesuit High School and an Ivy League college. I’ve forgotten more about critical thinking than you know. That is highly unlikely, though you do seem to have forgotten much of what you have learned. As you evidently do not recall, we went to the same ivy league college. Except I suppose I remember some of what I did there. > [@](#): > > I’m all for it in theory- but I have a B.S. detector, too, and NOBODY here in favor of the idea is very good at hiding his agenda. And nobody against it seems to be able to hide his agenda, either. This is not a deep revelation. All subjects, even those considered to be more objective, are laden with assumptions and values and can be subject to “agendas”. What values do emerge in the course of education is subject to constant negotiation, mediation, and conflict. As it probably should be. But the question at hand is whether a set of mental skills called critical thinking merits special attention in schools. Who the proposer is, especially in a general discussion thread, has nothing to do with it. After all, had **you** written the OP, do you think one of us would have accused you of sneaking your religious authoritarianism into schools under the guise of critical thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/68 "2009-08-27T21:58:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There does of course remain the possibility that the teacher may _circumvent_ unbiased discussion in their class - as can and does happen in history and literature classes and the like. This would happen only if classes were taught by fallible humans lacking a perfectly objective view of reality. > [@](#): > > However, the only way this would _really_ be effective is if they took it so far as literally not teaching the course subject matter Agreed - provided that subject matter was set forth by humans with a perfectly objective view of reality. > [@](#): > > … if they didn’t take it that far, then the students would use their own critical thinking to silently decide that the teacher was biased and correct for it! Unless, of course, those students had not fully developed their critical thinking skills due to lack of full exposure to unbiased course material. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what happened in Mao’s China; was critical thinking taught, but discussion subsequently supressed, or was the term ‘critical thinking’ (or, uh, the chinese equivalent) merely used to add legitimacy to mindless and irrational partisan screed? There was plenty of critical thinking, all of which was applied in the directions the authorities - and thus the course designers - intended (which certainly didn’t include any criticism of Mao or the society he ruled). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/69 "2009-08-27T22:13:21Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > This would happen only if classes were taught by fallible humans lacking a perfectly objective view of reality. > > Agreed - provided that subject matter was set forth by humans with a perfectly objective view of reality. > > Unless, of course, those students had not fully developed their critical thinking skills due to lack of full exposure to unbiased course material. Humans are fallible, therefore it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to teach critical thinking. At all. Even a little bit. Got it. > [@Xema](#): > > There was plenty of critical thinking, all of which was applied in the directions the authorities - and thus the course designers - intended (which certainly didn’t include any criticism of Mao or the society he ruled). Not to be picky, but this isn’t teaching critical thinking. This is teaching _memorized arguments_. If you teach _actual_ critical thinking, then the persons who have been so taught can apply it to things other than those that are used as ‘examples’. Maybe there \*are \*multible definitions of “critical thinking”, if you can learn plenty of it without gaining the ability to apply it to new arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/70 "2009-08-27T22:56:57Z")
I think the utility of critical thinking classes are overplayed. Students who would actually benefit from such a class already pick up critical thinking skills by osmosis in mathematics and English classes. Those likely to hold weird beliefs are going to hold them anyway. It’s not as if there’s not been many famous logicians with wacky beliefs, or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/71 "2009-08-27T23:00:25Z")
I share this skepticism (if that’s a good way to describe it). But I suppose I can’t really say anything without more details. What exactly is the proposed critical thinking curriculum to consist of? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/72 "2009-08-27T23:21:38Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I think the utility of critical thinking classes are overplayed. Students who would actually benefit from such a class already pick up critical thinking skills by osmosis in mathematics and English classes. Those likely to hold weird beliefs are going to hold them anyway. It’s not as if there’s not been many famous logicians with wacky beliefs, or anything… Well, I wouldn’t go that far. Frankly, I think pedagogical experts tend to be kind of wackaloon zealots: they’re either all “Core Knowledge FTW!” or “Learn how to learn, bitch!” You gotta strike a balance between the two. My cousin who at twelve didn’t know what the Revolutionary War was (and no, she wasn’t being a nitpicky bastard about which revolutionary war, she really had no idea) worried the hell out of me regarding her education. But if she’d learned the dates and locations of all major battles, without being able to analyze an argument, I would’ve been equally worried. Today I did my first math lesson from the unit I mentioned earlier. Kids used ten little cubes that snap together to build a structure, then drew it, then converted the drawing to an addition problem. It involved both creativity and something of an algorithm; both the advanced kids and the struggling kids were able to modify the lesson to their own level (by building a more difficult or simpler structure), and I had 100% of the kids engaged and excited. They were learning some difficult spatial thinking skills in addition to learning to draw connections between the concrete world of plastic cubes and the abstract world of numerical equations. That’s some good stuff. But I’m still gonna teach them the standard addition algorithm in a few months. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/73 "2009-08-28T03:23:06Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Art and music classes play an essential role in training students to learn that they can be creative, and that creativity and imagination enhance all that they do. Is there any evidence to support this claim? It’s certainly hard to imagine based on my experience of music and art classes. I have two massive problems with the claim. The first is that children don’t need to be taught how to be creative, they are naturally so. Art classes rather stifle creativity by telling children that they must create X at tine Y using method Z. The second is that finger painting and macrame are no more creative than essay writing or science experimentation. So why believe that two specific fields that supposedly promotes creativity is more essential than simply teaching science and essay writing? Basically, I’m shouting “Cite!”.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/74 "2009-08-28T03:46:24Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > To create an environment that fosters or encourages creativity, yes, but to actually teach it, I’m not sure. Creating that environment is a key component of art and music classes. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/75 "2009-08-28T03:48:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Is there any evidence to support this claim? It’s certainly hard to imagine based on my experience of music and art classes. I have two massive problems with the claim. > > The first is that children don’t need to be taught how to be creative, they are naturally so. Art classes rather stifle creativity by telling children that they must create X at tine Y using method Z. > > The second is that finger painting and macrame are no more creative than essay writing or science experimentation. So why believe that two specific fields that supposedly promotes creativity is more essential than simply teaching science and essay writing? > Basically, I’m shouting “Cite!”.😉 Basically, you’re setting up a strawman. Sure, a shitty art class might “stifle creativity.” Doesn’t have to be so, and certainly learning a craft properly is not “stifling creativity.” You’re really putting macrame and finger painting on the same level as essay writing or experimentation? :rolleyes: Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/76 "2009-08-28T04:19:06Z")
So you have absolutely no evidence to support your contention. Just as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/77 "2009-08-28T13:31:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So you have absolutely no evidence to support your contention. Just as I thought. Well let’s see. I already cited you research that shows how differential experiences have been documented to influence the development of creative thinking and made the argument that since skills improve with practice and that creativity is a skill that it logically follows that an art class which forces/encourages use of creative thinking would result in greater creative ability. But you want some more of direct cite? [Okay.](http://www.dana.org/news/features/detail.aspx?id=21738) > [@](#): > > The research presented at the forum builds on previous studies, including the work of the seven groups of scientists involved in the Dana Arts & Cognition consortium, that shows tight correlations between artistic endeavors and cognitive abilities. … This finding offers a tentative explanation for common anecdotal reports that academic performance improves in schools that boost their arts programs, he said. Different art forms, such as music or dance, activate quite distinct neural networks. But if kids remain open to the experience and stay interested, all the art forms seem to interact with the attention network. > > “If we are able to engage children in an art form for which their brain is prepared, and they have an openness and creativity, we can train them in this and see improvement in attention, as well as intelligence and cognition in general,” Posner said. > > “Performance or practice of any of the art forms changes the neural networks performing that art form. There is very little dispute about the existence of these networks and that they change with practice,” he added. “Years of neuroimaging have now given us a plausible or putative mechanism by which arts training could now influence cognition, including attention and IQ.” Again, the point is that both creative thinking and critical thinking are _skills_ and skills are best taught by putting students in environments in which the skills are practiced over and over again throughout the years and in which use of the skills become just another tool that can used as the situation demands. Indeed bad art classes can stifle creativity, just as bad science classes (which have children memorize and perform experiments as cookbook recipes without understanding how they are actually testing a hypothesis) stifle critical thinking. But good art classes are another thing altogether, just like good science classes are. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812/78 "2009-08-29T05:04:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When taken to an extreme I call this ‘compartmentalization’ - people draw a bright white line around concepts and chunks of subject matter in their mind - _this_ stuff is above question. Many people who never _ever_ question certain things or sources of information function quite competently in jobs or activities that require a fair amount of analytical or argumentive skill and ability to question other sources. The most outstanding example of this is religion. I don’t think many people would be surprised (were they to be honest about it) if studies were to show that non-religious, agnostic and atheist people were, on the whole, better at utilizing and properly applying critical thinking to various areas of their lives. Do I have a cite for such a study? No, I do not. But I think that if such a study were (or has been) undertaken it would show my predicted results. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-should-teach-children-critical-thinking/507812.md?page=3)