# Sci-fi films where some arbitrary "rules" creates horrific dystopian conditions (usually as social commentary) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [August 24, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451 "2021-08-24T18:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/65 "2021-09-18T13:33:58Z")
Eh, I can accept that sometimes some aspect of a world is meant as a metaphor. But the problem with Snowpiercer is that it just makes no sense as a metaphor. Whatever Deep Philosophical Ideas they wanted to express with a train, they could have expressed a lot better without a train. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/66 "2021-09-18T13:40:32Z")
The train is a microcosm of the world, dude! ---
**Author:** ![abcdefghij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/43a26b/32.png) [@abcdefghij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abcdefghij)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/68 "2021-09-18T14:15:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Whatever Deep Philosophical Ideas they wanted to express with a train, they could have expressed a lot better without a train. You make a good point, but I think maybe you missed the fact that **it’s a train!** ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/69 "2021-09-18T14:24:57Z")
I’m sure people were complaining when listening to Aesop that foxes cannot talk. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/70 "2021-09-18T15:53:12Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/950897/332): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Whatever Deep Philosophical Ideas they wanted to express with a train, they could have expressed a lot better without a train. > > This is my new favorite opinion, that social stratification could have been more clearly expressed in the big long train with lethal consequences movie Snowpiercers, if only there was not a train They could have used an apartment building (High Rise), a space station (Elysium), or a boat (Titanic). ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/71 "2021-09-18T16:00:31Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/950897/330): > > guess with Snowpiercer you either feel and understand it’s a three little pigs / aesop kind of deal I have no trouble with pigs that talk and build houses. It’s just an extension of real life. I like a wisecracking rabbit with a Brooklyn accent, too. I can handle The Matrix, Logan’s Run, A Boy And His Dog…but a train than runs in circles in a frozen wasteland with artificially created social stratification…yeah, no. > [@msmith537](#): > > The train is a microcosm of the world, dude! Have you like, ever looked at your hand? Like, really LOOKED, man? ---
**Author:** ![Yogeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yogeekgirl/32/4129_2.png) [@Yogeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yogeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/72 "2021-09-18T16:30:15Z")
Nobody’s mentioned Soylent Green yet? > **[Soylent Green (1973) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/)** > > Soylent Green: Directed by Richard Fleischer. With Charlton Heston, Leigh Taylor-Young, Chuck Connors, Joseph Cotten. A nightmarish futuristic fantasy about the controlling power of big corporations and an innocent cop who stumbles on the truth. ETA: Logan’s Run is one of my favorites. : ) And I’m with ya on the Snowpiercer, it was one looooong movie. Ok, back to the topic! ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/73 "2021-09-18T17:40:33Z")
I like (and have a copy of) Soylent Green, but didn’t see much in the way of ‘arbitrary’ rules. Social segmentation between the rich and the poor, ongoing destruction of environment and concurrent loss of sustainability food-wise all seem to be pretty much par for human society (and seems very likely for out not-too-distant real world future). The circumstances of the twist actually seem more benevolent (for certain values) in our current societies growing tolerance of assistance for end of life, and acknowledgement that despite certain capitalistic norms, we are a world with finite resources. I would say overall that Soylent Green is a dystopian world that has begun creating arbitrary rules (which arguably are _needed_)in an effort to survive, rather than anything close the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/74 "2021-09-18T18:39:03Z")
I think Soylent Green isn’t a science fiction dystopia as much as it is an end-of-the-world story. As it was made in the 70s, it fell into the old “the government is evil in all cases” mindset, and forgot the reality of the situation. “They” aren’t grinding up humans to make Soylent Green because they are evil, but because they have no other choice! There’s not enough left to eat anywhere. “The seas are dying”. Right “now” in the movie, there’s still food for the rich, but it isn’t going to last. Thorne getting the secret about SG out into the public isn’t going to fix the situation. It isn’t going to make food magically appear. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/75 "2021-09-18T18:41:48Z")
The scenario of the movie version of _Soylent Green_ (I’m unfamiliar with the novel) is that due to ecological collapse the overpopulated world is desperately short of protein. Carbs can be produced in barely adequate amounts (soy, lentils) but protein is in almost kwashiorkor short supply. In desperation the powers that be turn to recycling human corpses and encouraging voluntary euthanasia. The dilemma is this: keep it a secret; or let people know what they’re eating, in which case many people will starve rather than eat it, while those who will might eventually decide reprocessing isn’t necessary. True to it’s era, the movie version of _Soylent Green_ is presented as a hero battling The Establishment; but like the _Escape from New York/ Escape from L.A._ movies, it’s arguable that the protagonist is tearing down the only thing keeping what’s left of civilization going. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/76 "2021-09-18T19:08:12Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > but like the _Escape from New York/…_ movies, it’s arguable that the protagonist is tearing down the only thing keeping what’s left of civilization going. Even when the movie was new, I wondered “didn’t Snake just either cause a nuclear war, or at least, prolong the current war? How is that supposed to be a good thing?” And he definitely made things worse in EFLA, but I just pretend that movie doesn’t exist. And against speaking of arbitrary rules, and although I love the movie, the idea of turning Manhattan Island into a prison is as ridiculous as a perpetually circling train. At a minimum, what happened to the millions of people living there, the financial centers, everything. I know “Cabbie” just stayed when they made it a prison, as opposed to going in as a prisoner, but there can’t be too many like him. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/77 "2021-09-18T19:26:40Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > And against speaking of arbitrary rules, and although I love the movie, the idea of turning Manhattan Island into a prison is as ridiculous as a perpetually circling train. At a minimum, what happened to the millions of people living there, the financial centers, everything. I know “Cabbie” just stayed when they made it a prison, as opposed to going in as a prisoner, but there can’t be too many like him. The novelization of the movie said that Manhattan had been devastated by a nerve gas attack, which left most of those who weren’t killed psychotic. So it became a dumping ground for convicts. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/78 "2021-09-18T21:14:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The novelization of the movie said that Manhattan had been devastated by a nerve gas attack, which left most of those who weren’t killed psychotic. It wouldn’t have hurt to add that into the text introduction, Mr. Carpenter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/79 "2021-09-18T21:30:23Z")
And “It’s made of people!” wasn’t even part of the story at all in “Make room, make room”, the story Soylent Green was based on. In the original story, it was made from… soy and lentils, just like the name suggests. Which, incidentally, are both good sources of protein. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/80 "2021-09-18T21:41:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > > > And against speaking of arbitrary rules, and although I love the movie, the idea of turning Manhattan Island into a prison is as ridiculous as a perpetually circling train. At a minimum, what happened to the millions of people living there, the financial centers, everything. I know “Cabbie” just stayed when they made it a prison, as opposed to going in as a prisoner, but there can’t be too many like him. > > The novelization of the movie said that Manhattan had been devastated by a nerve gas attack, which left most of those who weren’t killed psychotic. So it became a dumping ground for convicts. No one really had to think about it that much back then. Escape From New York shared that sort of 80s and 90s post apocalyptic aesthetic of other films like The Running Man, Robocop, Akira, Cherry 2000, Freejack, Johnny Mnemonic and so on where it was just assumed that in 30 years or so, outside of a few protected wealthy enclaves run by evil megacorporations, most of America would be a violent urban hellscape. LOL, boy were they dumb back then! ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/81 "2021-09-18T23:26:40Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I think Soylent Green isn’t a science fiction dystopia as much as it is an end-of-the-world story. > > As it was made in the 70s, it fell into the old “the government is evil in all cases” mindset, and forgot the reality of the situation. “They” aren’t grinding up humans to make Soylent Green because they are evil, but because they have no other choice! There’s not enough left to eat anywhere. “The seas are dying”. Right “now” in the movie, there’s still food for the rich, but it isn’t going to last. Actually, it fell into the 70’s trap of straight-line-extrapolation Malthusian thinking. “If we extend the trend-line of this bad thing out 30 years, and totally ignore everything else that might happen, a planetary hell-hole is inevitable.” ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/83 "2021-09-22T19:22:36Z")
They’re the bad guys, but the **Settlement Defense Front** in **Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare** is basically “What if Nazi Germany were in Space in the form of Mars Rebels?” The SDF manages to completely annihilate the Earth’s United Nations Space Forces in their opening attack literally leaving only a single space ship left to take on the entire defense of Earth. Logistically, this doesn’t make any real sense because the SDF are literally a colony of Earth still, and this future Earth has over 12 billion people living on it, no way Mars even 100 years in the future could even match that. They hand-wave this by claiming that the SDF actually have 900% more soldiers per capita than the Earth which gives them parity since “The Front requires all of its male citizens to attend 15 years of military service beginning at age 12” but you will quickly realize this doesn’t make any sense at all still, you literally can’t have ALL your male citizens doing military service even part time for more than a decade each or else your entire economy will just completely collapse much like Nazi Germany in the final years of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/84 "2021-09-23T11:52:11Z")
_Snowpiercer_ worked better in it’s original graphic novel form. It still didn’t make a whole lot of sense, but it was easier to look past the flawed premise and it wasn’t overly long. I did read it before seeing the movie, so the graphic novel may not come off better if your mind is already polluted by that crapfest of a movie. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/85 "2021-09-23T15:46:25Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > you literally can’t have ALL your male citizens doing military service even part time for more than a decade each or else your entire economy will just completely collapse much like Nazi Germany in the final years of the war. Is there something implausible about the _other_ 50% of the population sustaining the economy (leaving aside the men \> 29)? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/86 "2021-09-23T16:01:30Z")
_Star-Trek: Next Generation_ S1 Ep. 8, “Justice” covers the Enterprise visiting planet Rubicun III, it’s a less technologically advanced planet with a human population, but it’s basically portrayed as idyllic, everything looks like a Greek mythology inspired plane of pleasure. However it’s discovered that the one rule this society has, that they believe created their utopia–is that **the only punishment for any crime is death.** This comes into focus when Wesley Crusher, playing a game with some of the natives, accidentally trips and falls into a flower bed. The destruction of the flowers, like all crimes, a capital offense on the planet. Thus, the idyllic paradise is revealed to actually be a vicious authoritarian dystopia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451.md?page=5)