# Sci-fi films where some arbitrary "rules" creates horrific dystopian conditions (usually as social commentary) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [August 24, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451 "2021-08-24T18:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/87 "2021-09-23T17:06:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > is that **the only punishment for any crime is death.** And to make it worse, it wouldn’t have been enforced say, ten minutes later. What areas are enforced is completely random. So in a way, the Edo are treated like an abused wife - “justice” comes randomly and arbitrarily. You don’t know what the Mediators are going to go off and kill you for, so you do nothing. And someday, doing nothing will be announced as a crime, and someone will die. And being an early episode doesn’t excuse how bad this one is. The setup is artifically generated so Picard can test his own beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/88 "2021-09-23T18:07:38Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > So in a way, the Edo are treated like an abused wife - “justice” comes randomly and arbitrarily. You don’t know what the Mediators are going to go off and kill you for, so you do nothing. And someday, doing nothing will be announced as a crime, and someone will die. Semi-serious thought from that: the Edo are so sexually active/forward because it’s the one thing they can do that definitely won’t be a crime. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/89 "2021-09-23T19:24:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is there something implausible about the _other_ 50% of the population sustaining the economy (leaving aside the men \> 29)? I’d have thought reducing the working population by half would cause problems, especially when they were also paying for a war. Plus, due to women historically having been discouraged from certain professions, there’d be a big skills gap for the first year or more, which would mean some of those 50% would be training as well as working. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/90 "2021-09-23T19:38:11Z")
The Nazis in total war footing with all available men and women doing “essential” jobs still wasn’t enough, they had to use vast swaths of prison/forced labor from both Concentration Camp prisoners and people forcibly conscripted from CONQUERED countries, which as you can expect made quality control absolutely atrocious. If the 50% of females could do the jobs then they wouldn’t have had to use people literally being worked to death. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/91 "2021-09-23T19:44:07Z")
Yup. Also, of course, some of those women, working class ones at least, would have already had jobs. They wouldn’t all have been available to take on jobs previously done by men. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/92 "2021-09-23T21:51:03Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’d have thought reducing the working population by half would cause problems, especially when they were also paying for a war. Plus, due to women historically having been discouraged from certain professions, there’d be a big skills gap for the first year or more, which would mean some of those 50% would be training as well as working. In context, though, this isn’t a case of a society losing a war shifting more and more resources to the military, it’s a society that’s designed from the ground up to support a massive military. There’s no “skill loss” of workers transitioning to military roles, because those workers were always in the military. It’s also difficult to say how feasible such a heavily militarized future economy would work, since presumably there’s a lot more automation in the economy once we’ve got viable, self-sufficient colonies on Mars. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/93 "2021-09-23T21:51:32Z")
But this is a society built around that premise, no? And also a science-fiction future one, with presumably a greater degree of automation than we have now? EDIT: Obviously @Miller’s society is capable of supporting a large number of ninjas. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/94 "2021-09-23T21:59:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In context, though, this isn’t a case of a society losing a war shifting more and more resources to the military, it’s a society that’s designed from the ground up to support a massive military. There’s no “skill loss” of workers transitioning to military roles, because those workers were always in the military. It’s also difficult to say how feasible such a heavily militarized future economy would work, since presumably there’s a lot more automation in the economy once we’ve got viable, self-sufficient colonies on Mars. I thought we’d moved on to talking in more general terms. But that society only really seems to have solved the problem of women being deterred from entering jobs aimed at men (which is actually a nice consequence for the women). ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2021, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/95 "2021-09-24T02:17:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In context, though, this isn’t a case of a society losing a war shifting more and more resources to the military, it’s a society that’s designed from the ground up to support a massive military. There’s no “skill loss” of workers transitioning to military roles, because those workers were always in the military. It’s also difficult to say how feasible such a heavily militarized future economy would work, since presumably there’s a lot more automation in the economy once we’ve got viable, self-sufficient colonies on Mars. This reminds me of the [Metzadan Mercenary Corps books by Joel Rosenberg](https://www.bookseries.org/series/metsada-mercenary-corps/). Basically, Israelis in space, who only have one export item that other planets are willing to pay for, that being mercenaries. So essentially all of the men are expected to become mercenaries, and literally every other job on the planet is done by the women. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/96 "2021-09-25T01:50:42Z")
Isn’t that the Dorsai, too? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/97 "2021-09-25T14:54:25Z")
And some degree or another several of the worlds of the Codominium like Dayan, Mejei and probably Sauron before it got slagged. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/99 "2021-09-26T12:10:19Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > due to women historically having been discouraged from certain professions, But this is set in the future, so the historic situation doesn’t signify. If they have all the young men doing war service, even historically we have models for women doing other work. And it seems the SDF doesn’t have women in their military for different reasons than pure sexism - or, at least, a different sort of sexism, it’s hinted they are values as breeders. Breeder+soldier is not a good combo, but breeder+office worker is just fine. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > there’d be a big skills gap for the first year or more I was assuming this was a permanent whole-society thing, so what happened in the first year is more-or-less in the past. That, plus these are a space-living people - I very much doubt women were ever just _hausfrauen_. Plus there are all the older men to do the on-the-job training, right? So no skills gap. > [@Asuka](#): > > If the 50% of females could do the jobs then they wouldn’t have had to use people literally being worked to death. _They_ weren’t exactly an automated modern society. I’m assuming a Martian/Outer planets society isn’t going to have people hauling coal or screwing the detonators into shells by hand. Also, the SDF does _have_ forced labour, although they also have robots. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/100 "2021-09-26T20:47:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > However it’s discovered that the one rule this society has, that they believe created their utopia–is that **the only punishment for any crime is death.** This comes into focus when Wesley Crusher, playing a game with some of the natives, accidentally trips and falls into a flower bed. It’s been a while since I’ve seen that particular episode, but it wasn’t a dystopia. The people weren’t unhappy and they seemed to have a fairly decent standard of living. This episode was about the conflict between two different societies where a citizen of the Federation transgressed against the Edo (even if inadvertently) and how to balance respecting the rules of another people even when it seems so barbaric by your standards. Although this aired a few years earlier, this kind of reminds me of the American student Michael Fay in Singapore who was sentenced to caning for graffiti. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/101 "2021-09-26T21:34:46Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > This episode was about the conflict between two different societies where a citizen of the Federation transgressed against the Edo (even if inadvertently) and how to balance respecting the rules of another people even when it seems so barbaric by your standards. Although this aired a few years earlier, this kind of reminds me of the American student Michael Fay in Singapore who was sentenced to caning for graffiti. Hey, it was Season One TNG. So they felt they had to uphold the approach of “let’s take some social issue, extend it _ad absurdum_ and deliver our message in a note wrapped around a ton of bricks, and everyone’s saved by Picard making a speech showing how morally enlightened we are”. Which except for the last bit is not unique to that franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/102 "2021-09-26T21:40:21Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Hey, it was Season One TNG. So they felt they had to uphold the approach of “let’s take some social issue, extend it _ad absurdum_ and deliver our message in a note wrapped around a ton of bricks, and everyone’s saved by Picard making a speech showing how morally enlightened we are”. Which except for the last bit is not unique to that franchise. I sometimes forget how sanctimonious the Federation was in early seasons of TNG. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/103 "2021-09-26T23:30:56Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > However it’s discovered that the one rule this society has, that they believe created their utopia–is that **the only punishment for any crime is death.** This comes into focus when Wesley Crusher, playing a game with some of the natives, accidentally trips and falls into a flower bed. > > It’s been a while since I’ve seen that particular episode, but it wasn’t a dystopia. The people weren’t unhappy and they seemed to have a fairly decent standard of living. This episode was about the conflict between two different societies where a citizen of the Federation transgressed against the Edo (even if inadvertently) and how to balance respecting the rules of another people even when it seems so barbaric by your standards. Although this aired a few years earlier, this kind of reminds me of the American student Michael Fay in Singapore who was sentenced to caning for graffiti. I dunno, to me it’s like the Eloi society in The Time Machine, it may not look like a dystopia, but I think once you learn how it works it kind of is? Like the TNG society portrayed is one where teenagers could be put to death for falling over a bed of flowers. I might take the grittiness of life in America and pass up on the Greco-Roman attire and everyone being a late 1980s fitness model in lieu of that. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/104 "2021-09-27T00:17:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I might take the grittiness of life in America and pass up on the Greco-Roman attire and everyone being a late 1980s fitness model in lieu of that. But…the Edo will have sex at the drop of a hat. Any. Hat. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/105 "2021-09-27T01:07:42Z")
Obviously, they need to breed like rabbits to keep up with the constant executions. Notice how we never see any elderly in that society? By the time they get to 30 or 40, everyone’s tripped over some flower bed or another. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/106 "2021-09-27T01:10:34Z")
Yes, it is dystopian, but I don’t see the arbitrary rules that make it so. Too many people, not enough food. And personally i see nothing immoral about Soylent green in that world. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451/107 "2021-09-27T01:14:55Z")
The Nazis never went to a total war footing. _## Limited War_ \*Jews and Slavs in Eastern Europe might scoff at the idea that the NAZIs waged a limited war, but in fact Hitler did place limitations on the German war effort. The German people and the German economy were not prepared for a long war. The Germany economy was not put on a total war footing. Women were not brouht into the work force and German companies continued to produce consumer goods. Promising arms projects like jet aircraft were on hold. Hitler wanted to maintain the civilian standard of living. Even after the disaster before Moscow (December 1941), Hitler resisted massive changes in economic policy. Hitler recalling the imact of privation on home front morale during World War I attempted to run the economy without major civilian dislocations or severe rationing. Germany began the War with inadequate resources and industrial base. Hitler’s war plan was short wars against individual opponents. The early victories assisted him, because the economies of the occupied countries were looted in various ways both to support the war effort and to main civilian consumption levels. Here France proved very important in both regards.\*[war and social upheaval : World War II NAZI German Total War Totaler Krieg](https://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/ger/eco/total.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-films-where-some-arbitrary-rules-creates-horrific-dystopian-conditions-usually-as-social-commentary/949451.md?page=6)