# Sci-Fi weapons with BAD design flaws **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2017, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573 "2017-01-30T07:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/161 "2017-02-14T21:36:15Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > The “tell” that it’s a conceit for the story’s sake is how the shield is not only resistant to ballistic damage, but disastrous against energy weapons (lasgun meets shield; everything gets nuked). > > It was a thinly-veiled justification for “I want the cultural default for combat to be melee.” A pseudo-medieval conceit, to go along with an explicitly feudal social order. What do you mean by ‘conceit’? I’m not familiar with the meaning you’re trying to get at here. Similarly, what do you mean by ‘thinly veiled’? It’s pretty normal for SF writers to make imaginary technologies have the properties that allow for the story they want to tell. I’m not aware that Herbert ever claimed to be doing otherwise, so rather than in any way veiled it’s just openly done, and ‘conceit’ usually means some kind of fancy metaphor, which it isn’t. And I don’t see how either of those mean that it was ‘badly designed’. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/162 "2017-02-14T21:39:40Z")
Yeah, the real problem with Dune shields is that a suicide bomber, or even just a simple mechanism, can easily nuke the place. And yes, I know, Butlerian jihad, but you could make a machine much simpler than the ones actually seen in-universe that could do it. Just attach a spring-loaded alarm clock to the trigger of a lasgun, and put it on a motorized cart aimed at your target. Or aim the gun with the alarm clock, and set the alarm for a long enough time to get out of there. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/163 "2017-02-15T01:17:05Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > How is that a design flaw? In-universe, that’s simply how the shield technology works, it’s a fundamental property of the physics creating them, not a limitation imposed by the designers. This is like complaining that older kevlar has a ‘design flaw’ because it works well against bullets but someone can jam a knife through easily - you might argue that a suit relying only on Kevlar has a design flaw, but Kevlar itself just is what it is. > > Out of universe, when Herbert designed the shield concept he wanted to stop large-scale firearm battles but retain personal combat. From a world-building perspective it exactly fills it’s goal, so can’t be called badly designed on that count either. Its clear that Herbert was trying to create a scenario where the combatants could use swords. In that regard he got the swashbuckling element he (and the books’ many fans) wanted. I hadn’t considered your Kevlar analogy before, and I don’t know enough about Kevlar to meaningfully reply. It just seems odd that an energy field mechanism can stop rifle fire but can’t stop a _slow-moving_ sword (there are plenty of references to Paul Atriedes slowing down his strike in order to get through a shield). ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/164 "2017-02-15T08:26:27Z")
> [@TYphoonSignal8](#): > > It just seems odd that an energy field mechanism can stop rifle fire but can’t stop a _slow-moving_ sword (there are plenty of references to Paul Atriedes slowing down his strike in order to get through a shield). As I recall (I haven’t read Dune in over 30 years) the personal shields **could** have been set to stop even slow moving objects, but the user would have run out of breathable air within the shield very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/165 "2017-02-15T12:47:38Z")
The do-it-all gun in _The Fifth Element_ that has a self-destruct button on the bottom of it. (Though to Zorg, I’m sure that’s a feature, not a bug.) It just begs to be accidentally pushed. The gun is clearly not to be used by anyone particularly clumsy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/166 "2017-02-17T04:41:28Z")
> [@TYphoonSignal8](#): > > Its clear that Herbert was trying to create a scenario where the combatants could use swords. In that regard he got the swashbuckling element he (and the books’ many fans) wanted. This. It seems to me that Dune technology is suitably advanced that they could have designed some sort of ranged weapon that can penetrate the shields. In fact, I recall in the film Duncan Idaho using such a weapon to kill a Sardaukar. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/167 "2017-02-17T14:23:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, the real problem with Dune shields is that a suicide bomber, or even just a simple mechanism, can easily nuke the place. And yes, I know, Butlerian jihad, but you could make a machine much simpler than the ones actually seen in-universe that could do it. Just attach a spring-loaded alarm clock to the trigger of a lasgun, and put it on a motorized cart aimed at your target. Or aim the gun with the alarm clock, and set the alarm for a long enough time to get out of there. And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen – the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don’t use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/168 "2017-02-17T14:46:18Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen – the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don’t use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter). I thought there was a mention of guns, possibly in the context of children. Anyway, they seemed more intent on fighting shielded invaders than each other, at least at the point in history we find them. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/169 "2017-02-17T18:42:07Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Maybe they _had_ to come out of hyperspace on the other side of Yavin. Flying through hyperspace ain’t like dusting crops, you know. It occurs to me that the rebels are smart. Hyperspace is more difficult to navigate around large gravity wells. Pick a small moon next to a large gas giant, to greatly limit the entry points for capital ships (or death stars) dropping in on you. We see more evidence for hyperspace risk on the assault on Hoth. The admiral didn’t come out of hyperspace “too early” just because he was dumb - he probably followed standard Imperial protocols for safe distance given the stated mission. And after all, the assault succeeded completely as a military mission. That he should take greater outside-the-books risks with the whole fleet because Darth Vadar’s sole purpose was to stop one person from slipping away in a small ship - hardly his fault he messed up that part. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/170 "2017-02-17T18:47:43Z")
That’s also consistent with Han hyperspacing through Starkiller Base’s shields, in _The Force Awakens_, which establishes first that it’s possible, and second that it’s so incredibly risky that only someone like Han would try it, and that only if he were desperate. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/171 "2017-02-17T18:56:15Z")
And even Han would only try it in a small ship with legend-level souped-up hand-tuned engines. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/172 "2017-02-17T19:31:33Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > It occurs to me that the rebels are smart. Hyperspace is more difficult to navigate around large gravity wells. Pick a small moon next to a large gas giant, to greatly limit the entry points for capital ships (or death stars) dropping in on you. > > We see more evidence for hyperspace risk on the assault on Hoth. The admiral didn’t come out of hyperspace “too early” just because he was dumb - he probably followed standard Imperial protocols for safe distance given the stated mission. And after all, the assault succeeded completely as a military mission. That he should take greater outside-the-books risks with the whole fleet because Darth Vadar’s sole purpose was to stop one person from slipping away in a small ship - hardly his fault he messed up that part. Actually, IIRC, Ozzel had the fleet come out of hyperspace close to the system (as General Veers tried to justify it, he thought he would surprise the rebels). Problem was, he couldn’t really get close enough to Hoth to deny the rebels any time to prepare a counter-assault/evacuation (as we saw, most of the important assets – not to mention the stars of the movje – were able to be moved off the planet). If Ozzel had come of HP further away, the rebels might not have noticed them before the fleet could be properly deployed to prevent the rebels from escaping. OTOH, I do think you’re correct on the Death Star/Yavin questions. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/173 "2017-02-17T19:45:54Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > If Ozzel had come of HP further away, the rebels might not have noticed them before the fleet could be properly deployed to prevent the rebels from escaping. Ah that’s right! And just went and looked at the clip to confirm - I got it wrong there. This put me in mind of something else in terms of design flaws. If we can talk about defensive systems instead of weapons, in Hoth: (1) why was the Imperial ship knocked offline so easily by the ion cannon, and (2) if ion cannons have that effect on capital ships, why aren’t ion cannons used more? Seems like a huge defensive mistake/hole somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/174 "2017-02-17T20:26:00Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > The Ultimate Nullifier. Destroys not only its target but its wielder, with the potential to destroy the universe. So what was Galactus going to use it for? I believe it’s canon that using it destroys Galactus- only he is then instantly recreated, being the incarnation of the balance between Eternity and Death. OTOH, if anyone else uses it _against_ Galactus, he’s screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/175 "2017-02-17T20:45:34Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > IIRC, the ‘Soft Weapon’ required some funny jiggery-pokery to get to the really destructive matter conversion mode. The slide just did a number of fairly mundane but useful things, causing the protagonist to speculate that it was a spy’s weapon, but not especially good for a foot soldier. Hence, he tried the jiggery-pokery. > > Now when you ASK the spy weapon how to get to the cool setting, that’s when the fun starts. As I recall from the ST:TAS adaptation, the slide gave you the mundane settings (perhaps the equivalent of a ceremonial sword?) while the key to the secret settings was to rotate the sphere at the end of the handle: one axis gave you the conversion beam, another gave you the AI computer, and the third the self-destruct. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/176 "2017-02-17T21:54:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > As I recall from the ST:TAS adaptation, the slide gave you the mundane settings (perhaps the equivalent of a ceremonial sword?) while the key to the secret settings was to rotate the sphere at the end of the handle: one axis gave you the conversion beam, another gave you the AI computer, and the third the self-destruct. From the story I read, rotating gave you the matter conversion beam weapon. The AI computer just sort of “showed up” after the weapon had listened to enough human/kzinti jabber to communicate. It offered to show the kzinti the secret, but of course by that time the AI knew they were not tnuctipun or tnuctip allies/descendants. So it showed them the self destruct, which they obligingly activated. I suppose it could have just decided to self destruct by itself, once it knew it had fallen into enemy hands…? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/177 "2017-02-17T22:03:25Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen – the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don’t use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter). I thought making large concussions was a bad idea if any Sandworms are around. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/178 "2017-02-17T22:29:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I thought making large concussions was a bad idea if any Sandworms are around. That would make mines ‘extra crunchy’, that is as long as you are not nearby. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/179 "2017-02-17T22:49:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > and second that it’s so incredibly risky that only someone like Han would try it, and that only if he were desperate. Yep if his timing was off by a fraction of a parsec… Kaboom. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573/180 "2017-02-17T23:14:35Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > This put me in mind of something else in terms of design flaws. If we can talk about defensive systems instead of weapons, in Hoth: (1) why was the Imperial ship knocked offline so easily by the ion cannon, and (2) if ion cannons have that effect on capital ships, why aren’t ion cannons used more? Seems like a huge defensive mistake/hole somehow. The cannon is massive, and we actually don’t know they aren’t used. Given that the Empire felt the need to build a planet-busting superweapon, they probably didn’t think the fleet alone was able to take on hardened planetary defenses and win. Of course, on reason for that would likely be that, as stationary defenses, they can’t guard anyplace else on the planet and can only fire into medium orbit at best. (Star Wars, being made by nerds for nerds, actually lists all the information on Wookiepedia.) Sure enough, the ion cannon the rebels had wouldn’t have been able to hit anything - except that Ozzel brought the fleet in too close. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-weapons-with-bad-design-flaws/778573.md?page=10)