# Sci Fi Women Who Are Excellent Human Beings Regardless Of Whether They Are Excellent Women **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712 "2011-11-22T03:29:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/81 "2011-11-23T10:30:33Z")
I’d be curious as to what the OP would make of Hester Shaw from Philip Reeve’s **Mortal Engines** books. A strong protagonist character but largely amoral and ruthless apart from her love for Tom (and indeed amoral and ruthless in defending that relationship; when she thinks she’s lost him, she betrays an entire city). Mind you, pretty much everyone except Tom is ruthless in those books. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/82 "2011-11-23T11:42:53Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > At the point where you assume there are different criteria for being an excellent human being and an excellent woman. I assume no such thing, nor does the text of the OP. See post #32. The OP is intended to allow for the possibility that _authors_ or _their readers_ might assume (rightly or wrongly) that there is some such distinction. My personal view (which is _absolutely irrelevant_ to the OP but anyway…) is that there is no ideal that applies specifically to women and not to men. So my concepts “excellent human being who happens to be a woman” and “excellent woman” happen to coincide. But the OP is written in a way that takes into account the fact that _other people’s_ concepts of “excellent human being who happens to be a woman” and “excellent woman” may not coincide. Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. The OP is perfectly clear, and so is what I just wrote, and they mean, AFAICT this early in the morning, exactly the same thing. Anyway, I’ve explained all this already, a couple of times at least, and plenty of others have understood the OP perfectly well. Your own points in the rest of your post have already been directly responded to elsewhere in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/83 "2011-11-23T11:43:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’d be curious as to what the OP would make of Hester Shaw from Philip Reeve’s **Mortal Engines** books. A strong protagonist character but largely amoral and ruthless apart from her love for Tom (and indeed amoral and ruthless in defending that relationship; when she thinks she’s lost him, she betrays an entire city). Mind you, pretty much everyone except Tom is ruthless in those books. I’ll add it to the list. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/84 "2011-11-23T12:19:10Z")
On rereading I’m not happy with the first two paragraphs of my previous post. I’ll return to them later but for now the main thing to take away is the rest of the pots after those first two paragraphs. See below: > [@Frylock](#): > > Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. > > The OP is perfectly clear, and so is what I just wrote, and they mean, AFAICT this early in the morning, exactly the same thing. > > Anyway, I’ve explained all this already, a couple of times at least, and plenty of others have understood the OP perfectly well. Your own points in the rest of your post have already been directly responded to elsewhere in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/85 "2011-11-23T17:09:33Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Except that woman is a subset of human beings, unlike painters and Muslims. > > Unless you can provide an example of what you DON’T want, I don’t see the point. I mean, can’t you just simplify it? Your wife doesn’t want sexist sci-fi? That’s what it sounds like to me. So just say that, because right now I’m questioning whether either of you understand English. Not really, a subset of a whole of humanity can have expectations of greatness that differ from the whole. For example: John, because of his heroism in war, is a great human being. John is a Quaker Therefore, John is a great Quaker (except that Quakers are supposed to be pacifists, so he’s potentially getting excommunicated) ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/86 "2011-11-23T17:28:09Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Not really, a subset of a whole of humanity can have expectations of greatness that differ from the whole. > > For example: > > John, because of his heroism in war, is a great human being. > John is a Quaker > Therefore, John is a great Quaker (except that Quakers are supposed to be pacifists, so he’s potentially getting excommunicated) Right, but that’s a bad example, because not everyone (in addition to Quakers) thinks that heroism in war makes someone a great human being. So presumably, someone who was a pacifist but not Quaker, would also disagree about John’s status as a great person. What the others are getting at is that there aren’t any universal expectations of “great human being” let alone any for “great human being MINUS great human woman.” It’s all in what an individual or culture sets up as their particular standards. What makes it more difficult is that worldwide, those standards vary greatly. Even something as simple as what type of personality you have can be seen as an asset or a detriment depending on what group you are looking to for affirmation. In addition, the OP is then asking us to deal with gender differences in those standards, which usually have even more baggage than just cultural “a person should be x” standards. All without specifying a specific culture or aspect of character and gender to limit the results. Now, I’m pretty good at taking people at what I think they’re trying to say, but I do think that the OP was phrased… interestingly to say the least. It’s like the OP wanted to be exceptionally careful not to imply \* any specific \* preferences or limitations as to what those expectations were for great person vs great woman, but at the same time, imply strongly that there \*were \*expectations that he wanted addressed. Very odd, and I don’t think it was necessarily required or helpful to phrase that way. I hope my response offering title suggestions was useful, but without more specific information about which specific parts of personal character vs gender character are desired to be dealt with, there’s not much more I can offer. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/87 "2011-11-23T17:43:12Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > It’s like the OP wanted to be exceptionally careful not to imply \* any specific \* preferences or limitations as to what those expectations were for great person vs great woman, Yes. > [@](#): > > but at the same time, imply strongly that there \*were \*expectations that he wanted addressed. Exactly _because_ you understood what you said you understood in the first quotation above, you should have known this latter quotation can’t be right. Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/88 "2011-11-23T21:15:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Skald** : > I’ll agree on Susan Calvin, but as much as I love the book Podkayne of Mars, the character isn’t even a woman; she’s a naive little kid. Oh, I’m sure she would have grown up to be a remarkable woman, but in the story she’s … well … not impressive except in terms of the potential she showed. Point taken. I was interpreting the OP as asking for female characters, age unspecified, not as (adult) women specifically. I agree, Podkayne doesn’t actually qualify as a woman. **JoelUpchurch** , re _1632_, one point I’ve noticed is that most of the major female characters are described as beautiful, despite none of the major male characters being described as handsome. It seems to me to be rather a stretch, especially when you’ve got a woman with a deprived and unsanitary upbringing, first seen climbing out of a cesspool, or the like. 17th century living conditions are not really conducive to a 21st century standard of beauty. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/89 "2011-11-23T21:24:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The OP is perfectly clear, and so is what I just wrote, and they mean, AFAICT this early in the morning, exactly the same thing. Evidently not, considering the number of generally pretty intelligent posters who had (and, for the most part, still have) no idea what you were asking for. It’s not entirely clear to me if the posters who have offered suggestions actually understood the OP, or just took it as an opportunity to talk about their favorite female characters in science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/90 "2011-11-23T21:38:49Z")
S. M. Stirling’s Nantucket series would probably fit the bill. Island in the Sea of Time Against the Tide of Years On the Oceans of Eternity One of the central characters is a Coast Guard captain, Marian Alston. She is a terrific character but much of what makes her terrific is that she is an awesome person, not just an awesome woman. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/91 "2011-11-23T21:42:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Evidently not, considering the number of generally pretty intelligent posters who had (and, for the most part, still have) no idea what you were asking for. > > It’s not entirely clear to me if the posters who have offered suggestions actually understood the OP, or just took it as an opportunity to talk about their favorite female characters in science fiction. Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. ETA: Seriously, teach me what I’m doing wrong. Look at the OP. Start from the left. Proceed to the right. Tell me where you stop feeling like you understand, and why. > [@OP](#): > > My wife is looking for works of science fiction which feature characters (esp. protagonists) who are female who are excellent human beings in a way that is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they are excellent women ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/92 "2011-11-23T21:51:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. > > ETA: Seriously, teach me what I’m doing wrong. Look at the OP. Start from the left. Proceed to the right. Tell me where you stop feeling like you understand, and why. Never mind. Don’t. Like I’ve said before: Anything you think may fit the OP is fine. If you don’t think you understand the OP, then feel free not to suggest anything. If you asked for clarification, and I said “what the OP says is sufficient for my purposes”, (and I am hereby saying that in case it’s not clear I’ve already done so,) feel free not to suggest anything. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/93 "2011-11-23T22:53:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Seconded. Ellen Ripley is without doubt the most iconic example of what I think the OP is looking for. I’d agree in Alien. In Aliens, she’s tied up as a mother figure to Newt; even more so if you see the extended version with her learning about her daughter. You don’t see Vasquez getting all nurturing over Newt, it’s something intentionally shown in Ripley’s character to separate her character from the Marines. ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/94 "2011-11-23T23:20:40Z")
Heinlein is nuts. I hate his characters, men and women alike. > [@](#): > > Many works of fiction presuppose that for a female character to be an excellent human being, she must match some feminine ideal or other. My wife is looking for works which do not make that presupposition. I like your wife. A fascinating study is how Scully in the X-Files changes from a total badass to a nutcase when she becomes a mother. Morgan and Wong left and I think Spotnik or somesuch took over. I was devastated. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/95 "2011-11-23T23:53:34Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’d agree in Alien. In Aliens, she’s tied up as a mother figure to Newt; even more so if you see the extended version with her learning about her daughter. You don’t see Vasquez getting all nurturing over Newt, it’s something intentionally shown in Ripley’s character to separate her character from the Marines. She does think Ripley from the first film is an example of what she’s looking for. We hadn’t thought of the points you make concerning the subsequent films… ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/96 "2011-11-24T00:25:28Z")
Having recently re-read Kim Stanley Robinson’s_Mars Trilogy_, it seems to be what you are looking for. About the same number of male and female characters with gender only being important when pairing off creates and issue. The characters are complex mixtures of positive and negative traits, but none of those traits are related being male or female. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/97 "2011-11-26T06:17:41Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I’d agree in Alien. In Aliens, she’s tied up as a mother figure to Newt; even more so if you see the extended version with her learning about her daughter. You don’t see Vasquez getting all nurturing over Newt, it’s something intentionally shown in Ripley’s character to separate her character from the Marines. The extended version sucks. I’m referring to the correct, original version. Ripley’s protection of Newt is motherly… but then, a male character could have and likely would have done the same thing, and it’d simply be fatherly. The Marines do take care of Newt; there’s a clever scene where they’re planning what to do, Newt is trying to get a look at what they’re pointing to on the table, and Hicks almost absentmindedly lifts her up and puts her on the table where she can see. He does it exactly the way a Dad or a beloved uncle would do it, noticing the child and helping her as a matter of course. They don’t get to be as protective of Newt as Ripley is largely because 1. Ripley’s the supporting character, and 2. They get killed, or in the case of Hicks, incapacitated. I don’t see Ripley’s character as being limited by the presence of Newt; her character maintains everything that’s good about it from “Alien.” She is smart, principled, and is brave in the TRUE sense of bravery - willing to take action even when she is afraid. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/98 "2011-11-27T00:25:03Z")
I understood exactly what you and your wife meant; I can only assume that anyone who doesn’t has never read Heinlein. Well, any SF written before 1972. My half formed memories suggest that in the early 1970s a bunch of female writers came along and soundly boxed the ears of science fiction. We had women sex slaves, women warriors, female-only populations that procreated by parthenogenesis … every way imaginable to challenge the unrecognized preconceptions. This was not a flaw know only to SF, of course - read Dickens - but it was a bit unpleasant to read works based on exploring all the options of universe sticking women in hostess aprons and mules, whether over a Donna Reed dress or not. > [@Frylock](#): > > Sorry, **Miller** , I genuinely don’t know how else to explain this. I do not have a model of feminine excellence in mind. I’m just looking for authors who don’t make the excellence of _their_ female characters depend on some conception of what it means specifically to be an excellent _female_. > [@Zsofia](#): > > I checked the thread twice and didn’t see Ripley on it - I think she’s the archetypal answer, as she was originally written as a man, right? No, Ripley is the best answer because in every movie the social expectations of women at a certain phase of their life was explored, but she was written as a person rather than a woman. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/99 "2011-11-27T08:27:39Z")
Do they have to be actual humans? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712/100 "2011-11-27T09:12:29Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I understood exactly what you and your wife meant; I can only assume that anyone who doesn’t has never read Heinlein. Well, any SF written before 1972. Your assumption is decidedly incorrect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sci-fi-women-who-are-excellent-human-beings-regardless-of-whether-they-are-excellent-women/603712.md?page=6)