# Science Fiction Debate: Uplifting Species to Sapience **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502 "2020-01-16T12:45:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/41 "2020-01-21T09:15:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Is this just the premise of this OP, or something that you’re asserting? Not to speak for the OP, but I certainly read it as the starting premise, since it’s not the case in the _Uplift_ books that are cited as an inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/42 "2020-01-21T18:50:55Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Strictly ethically; wouldn’t the OP:s proposal be the exact equivalent of implanting the brain of a human fetus or newborn child into the body of a non-human animal? Only if the attempt was to give them exactly a human brain. I don’t see why increasing a species’ capacity for speech, and/or for manipulating their environment, or even their general intelligence level if we could even figure out what such a thing is, would automatically make them exactly like humans in all other regards; or even in all other mental regards. > [@Ignotus](#): > > Seems to me that chances are the discussion won’t be all that interesting. Yeah, yeah, we all agree that 1+1=2. So what about shape-shifting and color change – how do you octopus _do_ it? Pretty much the same way you humans sneeze! Even among humans, while everybody agrees that 1+1=2, not every society agrees that the difference, say, between 13 and 14.1 is a difference that matters; or the difference between 1:00 PM and 2:14 PM. Some human societies notice differences that others don’t. I don’t think we have any idea how, or whether, communicating through color change, or through scent (for a couple of examples) would affect one’s perception of the universe; or whether a species that communicates that way might notice interesting and/or useful things that humans don’t notice. Just declaring in advance that there’s nothing interesting to be discovered about it strikes me as an unreasonably limited perspective. None of which means I think we should be jumping immediately into attempting to engineer other species into being able to join our conversation. For one thing I don’t think we know anywhere near enough about the subject to be trying to do such things yet; and for another I’m dubious about trusting anything of the sort to a species that deliberately breeds dogs who can’t breathe properly just because some humans like the look of the faces. But I don’t think either ‘we couldn’t possibly learn anything interesting’ or ‘anybody who could talk to us would have to be exactly like us’ are valid reasons against it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/43 "2020-01-21T19:05:04Z")
Humanity has too often proven its cruelty and incompetence towards other species (and itself), so I wouldn’t vote to uplift any other critters until we’re a \*lot \*more mature ourselves. That said, Diane Duane’s _Star Trek_ novel\* Dark Mirror\* has an interesting genetically-uplifted dolphin character serving as a Starfleet navigator. Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka’s _Nature’s End_ has some interesting stuff on uplifting other species. One of the major characters is a very smart orangutan, as I recall. There’s also passing reference to uplifting cats, a project quickly abandoned because “they held grudges and developed an almost supernatural ability to hide” (a great phrase). ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/44 "2020-01-21T21:05:27Z")
_Developed_ an almost supernatural ability to hide? Cats already have that. – I doubt they’d think we were “uplifting” them. I suspect cats think that they’re perfect as they are. (Our redesigning door openers and can openers so that cats could use them, now – ) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/45 "2020-01-21T21:16:57Z")
Actually, I can think of an uncomfortably good reason for us to do such a thing as soon as possible: So that there would be somebody around capable of keeping us under control. However, I doubt that we either could, or would, create such a creature on purpose. And if we create one or more such by accident, it probably won’t be through the route of hands and intelligence; it’ll probably be some highly infectious microorganism. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/46 "2020-01-21T22:33:02Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > _Developed_ an almost supernatural ability to hide? > > Cats already have that… Fair point, but it’s implied to be significantly better - and more dangerous - in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/47 "2020-01-22T06:30:19Z")
Hell, even creating a genetically pure Neanderthal is messed up. It’s a break it you buy it scenario. You give a creature the ability to realize the depths of suffering then you’re contributing to misery itself. And what would be the gain here? We give Lemurs the ability of sentience, then what? How are we expanding our own consciousness? How is the world a better place? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/48 "2020-01-22T15:36:28Z")
I think Planet of the Apes covered this pretty well. I don’t think it would end well, either for the humans, or the Apes (probably for the Apes). I honestly don’t see any need for it. What do we need another sapient species for other than to exploit? We have plenty of humans for anything else (and for exploitation). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/49 "2020-01-22T17:19:38Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > …What do we need another sapient species for other than to exploit? We have plenty of humans for anything else (and for exploitation). On that note, see Joe Haldeman’s very good and very chilling short story “Giza” (in his 2006 collection _A Separate War and Other Stories_), which is about genetically-engineering small, wiry semi-humans to build zero-G orbital colonies for us. Things… don’t go well. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/50 "2020-01-26T22:45:03Z")
Come to think of it, _2001: A Space Odyssey_ is a tale of aliens uplifting humans. Twice. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/51 "2020-01-27T00:03:24Z")
Uplift whatever the exact opposite of seagulls is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/52 "2020-01-27T00:15:12Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Uplift whatever the exact opposite of seagulls is. [[Mine]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BNbHBcnDI) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/53 "2020-01-27T00:20:05Z")
A Fire Upon The Deep by Vernor Vinge is an excellent uplift novel and also has a superb first contact plot. Highly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/54 "2020-01-27T16:07:04Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Come to think of it, _2001: A Space Odyssey_ is a tale of aliens uplifting humans. Twice. From a far distance, with no direct contact, though – and the uplift at least in the first instance was not micromanaged. They left the Moon and Jovian slabs in place to detect when/if the species eventually made it to deep spacefaring (and therefore would be ready for the next step) but in the meantime just gave thet first push and then let things develop contingently. So sure, if I’m a species that has developed to that point I’ll happily go around the galaxy at the very least telling the locals “keep banging the rocks together”. But like Hell I’m going to “uplift” my fellow creatures in my own ecosystem into a subclass at my service. That ends badly. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/55 "2020-01-28T02:51:34Z")
How about we uplift humans so diddling with other species is irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![GreenHell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@GreenHell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenHell)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/56 "2020-01-29T02:07:59Z")
Now, yer ‘onah. I may be just a simple, backwoods, neo-dog lawyah. But, I submit to the court, that given that the terms of said contract specify a subservient position to the client species, and furthermore that the domestic canine has co-evolved with his hominid benefactor for a term far exceeding that period, that we have not only fulfilled the specific terms of the brief in question, but have also answered the homo-sapiens’ perennial query, “Who’s a good boy?”. Plaintiff rests, ARF! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/57 "2020-01-29T03:10:28Z")
Now, yer ‘onah. I may be just a simple, backwoods, neo-dog lawyah. But, I submit to the court, that given that the humans before we took up with them were barely capable of scrawling on a wall or knocking two stones together, and that since we took up with them they’ve developed into a species capable of great artwork and basic space travel: we’ve uplifted them at least as much as they’ve uplifted us, and it’s long overdue that they take their turn at the servants’ side of the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/58 "2020-01-29T05:26:49Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Now, yer ‘onah. I may be just a simple, backwoods, neo-dog lawyah. But, I submit to the court, that given that the humans before we took up with them were barely capable of scrawling on a wall or knocking two stones together, and that since we took up with them they’ve developed into a species capable of great artwork and basic space travel: we’ve uplifted them at least as much as they’ve uplifted us, and it’s long overdue that they take their turn at the servants’ side of the contract. Bad neo-dog! _Bad!_ No attorney fees for you! ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502/59 "2020-01-30T19:53:29Z")
The worldbuilding project I write for, Orion’s Arm, has included uplifted species for twenty years. We wrote to Brin to ask for permission to use the term ‘uplift’, but the reply suggested we might prefer to use another term, so we devised ‘proactive evolution’ ([provolution](https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bbfdbc381f4)). We have thinking dogs, dolphins, trees and bacteria. Using these creatures as slaves is unethical, but not unheard of. The most extreme form of provolution is ‘pan-sophontism’, which is a belief that every living thing has the potential to become sentient. Indeed, the most extreme pan-sophontists believe that all baryonic matter in the universe can, and must, become intelligent, one way or another, and that we have a duty to make it so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-debate-uplifting-species-to-sapience/846502.md?page=2)