# Science Fiction novel where Earth isn't united **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [March 31, 2025, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366 "2025-03-31T00:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/21 "2025-03-31T20:56:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > There’s always Jerry Pournelle’s _CoDominium_ series. Massive colonization between competing countries with everything dominated by the US/USSR working in “tandem.” A horrible option that may yet come to pass, although the USSR has changed its name. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/22 "2025-03-31T21:00:14Z")
Another difference is in the books, the US / USSR team was dominated by the USA, you know, the good guys. In our timeline things will be different. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/23 "2025-03-31T21:10:55Z")
The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe qualifies, unless there’s some major twist in the fourth section (The Citadel of the Autarch) which I haven’t read yet. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/24 "2025-03-31T21:17:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Another difference is in the books, the US / USSR team was dominated by the USA, you know, the good guys. > > In our timeline things will be different. IMHO, in the CoDominium series, both grew ever closer to each other taking on each other’s worst traits without embracing any improvement, while still hating each others guts. Which, equally IMHO, is _exactly_ what’s happening in this timeline. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/25 "2025-03-31T21:22:33Z")
Hijack: At least as of this writing Trump is p.o.'d with Putin for making him look bad re. his wonderful peacemaking skills. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/26 "2025-03-31T21:38:22Z")
Moderating: > [@Lumpy](#): > > Hijack Yeah, this really is a hijack, and has nothing to do with the thread. Please don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/27 "2025-03-31T21:51:02Z")
Sorry to bait that trap folks. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/28 "2025-03-31T22:10:01Z")
Speaking only to the OP and correctly avoiding the P&E talk, there’s the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium#:~:text=The%20point%20of%20departure%20of,for%20over%20a%20hundred%20years) on it: > The point of departure of Pournelle’s history is the establishment of the _CoDominium_ (CD), a political alliance and later [union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_union) between the [United States of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) and a revitalized [Soviet Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union). This union, achieved in the name of planetary stability, reigns over the [Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) for over a hundred years. In that time, it achieves peace of a sort, as well as [interstellar colonization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_colonization), but at the price of a complete halt in both scientific and political evolution. > > The CoDominium (CD) is a [supranational alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supranational_union) of the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. This alliance eventually becomes a _de facto_ [planetary government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_government), and later, an interstellar empire. Despite this, no other nations on Earth are given representation or membership. Other major powers become mere [client states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_state). It is governed by a “Grand Senate”, which is composed of Senators chosen from the two superpowers. A CoDominium Council exists and appears to function as a [judicial branch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary). The CD did not unify the United States and the USSR, who appear to retain their separate identities and mutual distrust. The CD was only created for the shared benefit of the two member states. It does not govern either nation, and each state has been allowed to retain their government structures, nationalities, military forces, and to run their own internal affairs. So various nations exists, and that variation of the USA and Russia cooperate but remain distinct, while supporting interstellar travel and colonization. However, at this time in the shared universe, there isn’t any encounter with actual aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/29 "2025-04-01T04:41:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In the Vorkosigan series Earth still has separate nations. Aren’t they a largely unified polity in the Vorkosigan books? They have a shared navy, and (I think) a shared currency. They still have their own cultural identity and some degree of individual laws, but they’re more like a global EU than a bunch of nation-states each pursuing their own interstellar agenda. Either way, though, it’s disqualified from the OP for lack of aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/30 "2025-04-01T04:47:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Aren’t they a largely unified polity in the Vorkosigan books? Not really; it’s mentioned in _Brothers in Arms_ that they are a military non-issue in part due to their “governmental disunity”. I don’t think it’s gone into much detail. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/31 "2025-04-01T07:11:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not really; it’s mentioned in _Brothers in Arms_ that they are a military non-issue in part due to their “governmental disunity”. I don’t think it’s gone into much detail. I actually like that a lot in the books: Earth is there, and it’s fine, but it’s just not that important. It’s still one of the cultural and intellectual centers of the galaxy, but politically, economically and militarily, it’s basically negligible. It’s a very popular tourist destination, though. In most futuristic SF books, Earth is either the center of the universe, or lost/destroyed. You rarely see an Earth where the future just passed it by. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/32 "2025-04-01T07:17:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I actually like that a lot in the books: Earth is there, and it’s fine, but it’s just not that important. It’s still one of the cultural and intellectual centers of the galaxy, but politically, economically and militarily, it’s basically negligible. It’s a very popular tourist destination, though. > > In most futuristic SF books, Earth is either the center of the universe, or lost/destroyed. You rarely see an Earth where the future just passed it by. Yeah, I like that rare as it. It’s kind of funny that Earth not being all that exceptional _is_ the exception. Related: I like stories where humans are just another species. Not the persecuted victims of aliens, and not the scourge/chosen ones of the galaxy. Just “those guys from Sol III”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/33 "2025-04-01T07:22:15Z")
I just remembered the sequels to Rendesvous with Rama, in which the planetary government from the first book collapses in the late 21st century and the old nation-states (including the Soviet Union) reassert themselves. I’m now going to proceed to forget them again, because the sequels were **terrible**. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/34 "2025-04-01T07:52:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Aren’t they a largely unified polity in the Vorkosigan books? > > Either way, though, it’s disqualified from the OP for lack of aliens. You could argue that they’re well on their way to creating their own “aliens”. Betan Hermaphrodites, Quaddies, the Athosians, and whatever the Haut are/are becoming, they’d all pretty alien to Earth-normal humans. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/35 "2025-04-01T07:57:33Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > You could argue that they’re well on their way to creating their own “aliens”. Betan Hermaphrodites, Quaddies, the Athosians, and whatever the Haut are/are becoming, they’d all pretty alien to Earth-normal humans. Especially since most aliens in fiction are only alien _physically._ ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/36 "2025-04-01T20:51:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In most futuristic SF books, Earth is either the center of the universe, or lost/destroyed. You rarely see an Earth where the future just passed it by. One exception was Asimov’s “Pebble in the Sky”, a quasi-prequel to the _Foundation_ series. In it a galactic empire rules thousands of worlds including an Earth that is a backwater due to having suffered one or more nuclear wars in its past. This far into the future Earth’s status as the origin point of the human species has mostly been lost, and the very idea of any planet having that distinction is suspect on ideological grounds (the prevailing theory being that the various humanoids of the galaxy are examples of convergent evolution). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/37 "2025-04-01T21:21:01Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In it a galactic empire rules thousands of worlds including an Earth that is a backwater due to having suffered one or more nuclear wars in its past. This far into the future Earth’s status as the origin point of the human species has mostly been lost, and the very idea of any planet having that distinction is suspect on ideological grounds I think that counts as the “lost” option of “lost/destroyed”. Maybe it wasn’t physically lost, but its history was, and that’s essentially the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/38 "2025-04-01T21:31:06Z")
In Alastair Reynolds’ _Chasm City_, there’s no FTL travel but there are interstellar ships (and aliens). We don’t learn much about Earth but the ships of the flotilla are called the Santiago, Palestine, Brazilia, Islamabad, and Baghdad. We don’t find out for sure, but the ships are in intense competition and it suggests that they were launched by their respective nation-states (though with some cooperation, since the designs are identical). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/39 "2025-04-01T21:40:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that counts as the “lost” option of “lost/destroyed”. Maybe it wasn’t physically lost, but its history was, and that’s essentially the same thing. That far in the future most of the galaxy’s history has been lost, to the point that the “primitives” found scattered across the galaxy were presumed to have evolved on those planets, the era of galactic exploration and settlement being tens of thousands of years previous. Is it ‘prehistory’ if there has been an unbroken chain of civilization but the sheer length of time involved means that the distant past is lost in fog except for fragmentary and contradictory legends/myths/forgeries? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2025, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366/40 "2025-04-01T21:54:58Z")
That’s why the further in the future a story is set, the more common the “lost Earth” trope is, until you go full circle and reach a Jack Vance/Gene Wolfe “Dying Earth” situation, which despite being set in our world might as well be a separate universe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-novel-where-earth-isnt-united/1016366.md?page=3)