# Science Fiction --OR-- Fantasy **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264 "2013-12-02T03:33:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/61 "2013-12-03T12:33:28Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Then why are you reading Fables? That’s about as fantasy as you’re gonna get. Archetypes of all kinds, mythical beasts, magic, etc. Because the Fables’ adventures don’t take place on Rigel IV, or in the Lands of Mygollthan. They take place in New York City or elsewhere in today’s United States (mostly), in a context that you and I would be familiar with. What I enjoy is the dichotomy of the fables, with all their powers, stuck being mundane, lest they tip their hand and give themselves away. But they still have to remember who they are: Rapunzel gets her hair cut a few times a day, for example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/62 "2013-12-03T14:00:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Virtually any science fiction story can be rewritten - with a few minor changes - as a fantasy story, and vice versa. At that, would you say _Ghostbusters_ is science fiction or fantasy? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/63 "2013-12-03T14:24:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > At that, would you say _Ghostbusters_ is science fiction or fantasy? It’s a comedy ghost story with science fiction elements. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/64 "2013-12-03T16:11:40Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > It’s a comedy ghost story with science fiction elements. Fair enough. What about _Somewhere In Time,_ where our hero travels back in time not in a plutonium-powered DeLorean or with a Hogwarts-style magical hourglass, but through lessons from a philosophy professor about self-hypnosis? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/65 "2013-12-03T16:31:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Fair enough. What about _Somewhere In Time,_ where our hero travels back in time not in a plutonium-powered DeLorean or with a Hogwarts-style magical hourglass, but through lessons from a philosophy professor about self-hypnosis? Romantic fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/66 "2013-12-03T16:44:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is it, though? The quip upthread says it’s F or SF based on whether you’ve got a _hovering_ dragon. So first we’ve got droids, and starships, and that crazy old wizard who _these-aren’t-the-droids-you’re-looking-for_ like Mandrake the Magician, and the guy who’ll gesture-choke you if you insult his sorceror’s ways – and then, in the next installment, cue the wise old mentor who can levitate a whole X-Wing. > > (And then cue the evil one who wills lightning out of his fingertips.) Sci-fi with too many magic like abilities that can be chalked up to whatever that silly thing Lucas said. In other words, Psionics (thus Sci-Fi) and not Magic (Fantasy). Besides, interstellar travel in space ships, robots and blasters overwhelms the Fantasy elements. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/67 "2013-12-03T17:00:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Virtually any science fiction story can be rewritten - with a few minor changes - as a fantasy story, and vice versa. Mission of Gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/68 "2013-12-03T17:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Spoons** : > > Because the Fables’ adventures don’t take place on Rigel IV, or in the Lands of Mygollthan. So? What does that have to do with anything? Plenty of science fiction and fantasy both take place in familiar settings. And for that matter, things that aren’t either can take place in exotic settings, too: _Apollo 13_ wasn’t science fiction, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/69 "2013-12-03T17:01:06Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Then why are you reading Fables? That’s about as fantasy as you’re gonna get. Archetypes of all kinds, mythical beasts, magic, etc. > [@Spoons](#): > > Because the Fables’ adventures don’t take place on Rigel IV, or in the Lands of Mygollthan. > > They take place in New York City or elsewhere in today’s United States (mostly), in a context that you and I would be familiar with. What I enjoy is the dichotomy of the fables, with all their powers, stuck being mundane, lest they tip their hand and give themselves away. But they still have to remember who they are: Rapunzel gets her hair cut a few times a day, for example. Most classic fantasy takes place on Earth, though it’s the Earth of the past. When those classic tales were first told, they were frequently set in then-current times. There’s a lot of modern fantasy that’s set in current times, too. For instance, Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files series is set in the US, and in modern times. One vampire series has a slight change in modern times, a company has developed artificial blood that’s so realistic, vampires can live on it without preying on humans, so they’re able to mingle with humans. In fact, there’s quite a few vampire/werewolf series that are set in modern times. This doesn’t make them any less qualified to be fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/70 "2013-12-03T17:19:28Z")
Wisconsin’s Digital Library does indeed have a “Science Fiction & Fantasy” category, and even worse, it considers those cheesy romance novels (you know, the ones with the deep cleavage chicks clinging to the bare-chested heroes) as Fantasy. So if you go browsing through looking for sci-fi, you have to get through all that other crap to find it. I eventually found how to avoid that and filter down to just the sc-fi, and that was almost worse! First, the collection for the whole state was pretty paltry – about 2,000 titles, and 3/4 of them are checked out at any given time. But you can also filter down to see only what is available now – and here is the bad part. About a quarter of the available titles had “Star Wars” logos on their covers! Apparently whoever does their purchasing just phones it in and has no real appreciation of the genre. So you can’t find scifi classics that should be the staples of any large collection, yet you can find practically any Star Wars drivel ever written. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/71 "2013-12-03T18:05:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So you can’t find scifi classics that should be the staples of any large collection, yet you can find practically any Star Wars drivel ever written. This couldn’t be because their readership overwhelmingly prefers it, could it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/72 "2013-12-03T19:13:25Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Romantic fantasy. Interesting. Okay, one last one for you (or anyone else) to classify: a book where the protagonist is, y’know, psychic – not as the result of a scientific experiment, or years of occult study, but just because, well, this is one of those stories where some people happen to be psychic. That’s the premise; they just _ **are,** _ is all. I’ve seen plenty of fiction built around that starting point; sci-fi or fantasy? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/73 "2013-12-03T19:25:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This couldn’t be because their readership overwhelmingly prefers it, could it? It’s the Science Fiction variation of Gresham’s Law: **Star Wars drivel tends to drive out ordinary SF Drivel.** Works for Star Trek, too. ---
**Author:** ![Disheavel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Disheavel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disheavel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/74 "2013-12-03T19:33:14Z")
There are some excellent comments in here and I always feel like my comments aren’t as impressive as many of the previous arguments; however, there is one aspect that I’ve really come to appreciate in recent years regarding the lumping together of Sci-Fi and Fantasy. As well as even the alternative history and many other genres mentioned already. They all transport us to a new world in which to examine the workings of (our own) society (and history) without the baggage or predisposition. Isaac Asimov’s Foundation series, his robot series, Margaret Atwater’s Oryx and Crake, Harry Potter, etc. are all about power, corruption, superiority of a person or a race or a technology holder. They ask important questions, HP’s “Do wizards have a right to preemptively strike if they believe that they would be wiped out by muggles if muggles _knew_?”. Dan Brown’s Digital Fortress about the NSA, “asks because the NSA can? does it make it right?” Similar to everything Michael Crichton wrote, “because science can? does that make it right?” The Hunger Games is rah rah for the little oppressed people until… So I think the similarity between all of the genres listed is the ability to transport the reader to a place of overviewing a new situation and drawing conclusions and similarities to existing social and political events in a safe way for the reader to examine and come to their own or the author’s conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/75 "2013-12-03T19:33:23Z")
If that’s [an unexplained psychic] the only notable part of the premise? I’d call that fantasy. Though I might grudgingly accept it as science fiction if there are other trappings of the genre. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/76 "2013-12-03T19:34:44Z")
Like babes in skants! ---
**Author:** ![Disheavel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Disheavel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disheavel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/77 "2013-12-03T19:42:23Z")
I might add that one other question that can sum up the additoin of many other in the fantasy genre like Tolkien and Peter Pan and Narnia. Can a person be truly not self-interested? Does that make them a savior or simply a human? I’m sure many of you have read it or listened to the NPR series, but “The Hero with a Thousand Faces” by Joseph Campbell is one of my most frequently cited books to people- it’s the basis of Star Wars and TV’s Survivor. It really gets to the root of why we story tell and what people try to convey. Enough philosophy for me today… I’m way out of my depth there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/78 "2013-12-03T19:57:09Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s the Science Fiction variation of Gresham’s Law: > > **Star Wars drivel tends to drive out ordinary SF Drivel.** > Works for Star Trek, too. I’m not defending them, just pointing out that in a world in which libraries have been fighting for survival for decades, the notion that libraries should maintain a core collection of scifi classics over books that people actually want to check out is delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/79 "2013-12-03T20:04:53Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This couldn’t be because their readership overwhelmingly prefers it, could it? It may be possible to determine this – I’ll try. The total “available” titles (at the time I looked) was 460 titles – 95 had the Star Wars logo on their cover. I can look at all the titles, and count logos. If that percentage is significantly lower than 20-25% of all titles, then it’s a good bet that most of the titles are sitting available and unread within the collection. One of my friends suggested that maybe someone (a Star Wars groupie? Lucas Films?) is picking up the tab for stocking the library, perhaps as an unconventional means of promoting the product brand. It seems slightly possible, and certainly preferable to the library spending so much of it’s own money on the titles. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264/80 "2013-12-03T20:07:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Mission of Gravity. “Virtually.” 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-fiction-or-fantasy/675264.md?page=5)