# Science is screwing up the battle for America's minds. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716 "2005-07-15T21:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/281 "2005-07-21T13:20:31Z")
Great quote tom. Bricker- Your “black box” approach is, of course, exactly the scientific method. You observe, make models, and to the degree that your model makes future predictions accurately you believe that your model is the one to use, even if it hasn’t “solved” the box. In a very real way that is what particle physics is all about, shooting particles at each other and seeing how well the models have predicted which way the trails go. No one has ever really seen a quark. Who knows if better models will supplant Standard Theory? The box is not yet solved, but the process lets us understand the box better anyway. And it is, I believe, a mistake to apply this approach to religious or moral truths. Moral truths do not hold up to an evidence based review, as Bryan points out. Bad deeds go unpunished all the time. Good people suffer horrible illnesses. Yet those of us who believe believe anyway. In fact religious faith is often that which is believed in spite of the evidence (e.g. Rabbi Akiva who recited the Shma while being burned alive by the Romans). It is only an insecure religious faith that looks to the material world for evidenciary support and is threatened when the evidence fails to appear. God may be, and God may be unknowable, but the moral truths about what God wants are based on accepting revealed truths in sacred texts and oral traditions and concordance with what we believe in our metaphorical hearts. Neither God nor relgious precepts are or should be evidencary based. Down that path lays folly. For both religion and for science. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/282 "2005-07-22T11:37:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Great quote tom. > > Bricker- > > Your “black box” approach is, of course, exactly the scientific method. You observe, make models, and to the degree that your model makes future predictions accurately you believe that your model is the one to use, even if it hasn’t “solved” the box. In a very real way that is what particle physics is all about, shooting particles at each other and seeing how well the models have predicted which way the trails go. No one has ever really seen a quark. Who knows if better models will supplant Standard Theory? The box is not yet solved, but the process lets us understand the box better anyway. > > And it is, I believe, a mistake to apply this approach to religious or moral truths. Moral truths do not hold up to an evidence based review, as Bryan points out. Bad deeds go unpunished all the time. Good people suffer horrible illnesses. Yet those of us who believe believe anyway. In fact religious faith is often that which is believed in spite of the evidence (e.g. Rabbi Akiva who recited the Shma while being burned alive by the Romans). It is only an insecure religious faith that looks to the material world for evidenciary support and is threatened when the evidence fails to appear. > > God may be, and God may be unknowable, but the moral truths about what God wants are based on accepting revealed truths in sacred texts and oral traditions and concordance with what we believe in our metaphorical hearts. Neither God nor relgious precepts are or should be evidencary based. Down that path lays folly. For both religion and for science. Reveled truths is a matter of belief. Not necessarily fact,so it could well mean they are not truths at all. You are taking the word of another human who said God revealed this or that to them. Even that has been translated many ways, so it remains a matter of faith, which I think is a personal decision, and doesn’t make it fact, but if believing helps you or others to better their lives and the lives of others it is okay with me. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/283 "2005-07-23T12:19:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I agree with the part of “real science” you described, but the problem is, real science exists only in the text books, and not in reality. > > So I will go back over what I said: > > In the real world scientists believe the brain creates consciousness, if you mention the word spiritual they will remind you the supernatural doesn’t exist. Push them and they will call you ignorant. This is how science behaves to those who don’t believe as they do. This thread is full of examples. > In the real world scientists believe feelings and emotions get in the way of critical thinking and logic. You said: “You see that some scientists perform experiments that involve animal suffering. And in a muddled way, you think that science itself must be somehow responsible for that, so you blame science.” So you think I am muddled for thinking science is responsible for what scientists do? Very strange type of logic. If science doesn’t like what scientists do, science should speak out. If they don’t, then the general population will. > > Religious doctrine should be accepted on faith, say the Christians. Do not use critical thinking or logic, only faith is acceptable. > > While scientists say faith, emotions, and feelings only get in the way of critical thinking, and logic. Only objective calculations free of feelings can be used. > > Now if you are intelligent enough to know that religion is wrong, you should be intelligent enough to know that science is wrong also. Man is not one or the other, but a synergy of both. > > On the Terri Schivo brutality. > > You said: “Showing compassion” is not the same thing as “uncritically accepting unsupported claims and accusations”. Science is morally neutral about emotions. > > There were no facts in the Schivo case, on the one side we have a husband who broke his marriage vows, lied and cheated on his wife, saying she told him she wanted to die. On the other side we had the family that wanted to care for her saying she did not want to die. Both sides had “friends” who heard. All evidence was hearsay evidence. So there was no facts, yet there was no compassion either. I think this incident brought to light a lot of things. Oh, yes, the doctors’ testimony cancelled each other out. > > If science is “morally neutral about emotions” then science can’t be trusted to do the right thing any more. Something has to change, and I hope the American public will do something quickly to change it. Terri’s husband did all he could to kep her alive for many years, even took her to California for therapies that he was told could not do any good. He was faithful for years to a living (as some would call it) corpse. His vow was 'til death do them part. She was technicially dead for many years, just her brain stem was working. For your sake I hope you never are in his or Teri’s shoes. Just try lying down on a cot with out moving for one month,(with a blind folf over yoour eyes and see how long you would want to live like that. I doubt you would stay for a week. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/284 "2005-07-23T12:22:38Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Terri’s husband did all he could to kep her alive for many years, even took her to California for therapies that he was told could not do any good. He was faithful for years to a living (as some would call it) corpse. His vow was 'til death do them part. She was technicially dead for many years, just her brain stem was working. > > For your sake I hope you never are in his or Teri’s shoes. Just try lying down on a cot with out moving for one month,(with a blind folf over yoour eyes and see how long you would want to live like that. I doubt you would stay for a week. > > Monavis now that blind folf over yoour eyes would be quite a thing…right 😃 Monavis ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/285 "2005-07-23T14:32:50Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Terri’s husband did all he could to kep her alive for many years, even took her to California for therapies that he was told could not do any good. He was faithful for years to a living (as some would call it) corpse. His vow was 'til death do them part. She was technicially dead for many years, just her brain stem was working. > > For your sake I hope you never are in his or Teri’s shoes. Just try lying down on a cot with out moving for one month,(with a blind folf over yoour eyes and see how long you would want to live like that. I doubt you would stay for a week. > > Monavis Monavis, don’t even bother. This subject (Schiavo) was already talked ad nauseum. What lekatt is saying has already been debunked ad nauseum. Yet he/she keeps repeating and spreading the same falsehoods. You can’t fight ignorance unless the other side is willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/286 "2005-07-24T02:12:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Monavis, don’t even bother. This subject (Schiavo) was already talked ad nauseum. What lekatt is saying has already been debunked ad nauseum. Yet he/she keeps repeating and spreading the same falsehoods. You can’t fight ignorance unless the other side is willing to listen. At least you got the last sentence right. Have you ever noticed how there is really no debate going on between the spiritual and the secular on this board. The secular just announces what is fact and then calls any deviation from what they announce as ignorance or worse. When I post links they are never read, well maybe a paragraph or two, and never discussed. When I make a good post it is ignored. Like no. 204. I know you are fearful of truth, if you were not, every possibility would be studied. Every lead followed and considered. Well, maybe some day. There is a difference between skeptics and scientists. As Carl Sagan said: “to be skeptical of everything is insanity.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/287 "2005-07-24T02:26:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The secular just announces what is fact and then calls any deviation from what they announce as ignorance or worse. How is this different from you pronouncing your “spirituality” as the Truth, and disparaging anyone who won’t accept it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/288 "2005-07-24T04:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you ever noticed how there is really no debate going on between the spiritual and the secular on this board. The secular just announces what is fact and then calls any deviation from what they announce as ignorance or worse. On the contrary. I have seen many fruitful discussions and several respectful debates between believers and non-believers on this board (which I presume is what you mean by “spiritual and secular”). I have never seen one in which you participated because you always misrepresent what those who do not believe in God actually believe, misrepresent how science works and what it has demonstrated, and lie about what scientists may have said. Thus, once you enter a discussion, there are so many efforts to correct the errors that you post, that the threads are typically derailed by your false claims. (This thread would be a good example.) Having already disrupted this thread over your misperceptions of science, you are now taking it further afield with your claims regarding the Schiavo case. There are many believers who accept Mr. Schiavo’s narration of events over that of the Schindlers, yet you have falsely portrayed the argument over events (not the debate over what should have been done regarding Ms. Schiavo) as one between “spiritual and secular” people. You simply make it up as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/289 "2005-07-24T11:09:35Z")
The debate between truth(fact) and faith goes on and on, but one can believe what they want ,but once faith becomes fact it is no longer Faith,One can believe untrue things,and the majority can be wrong and have been. Just as one can dis-believe true things. Facts can be proven at one point, faith is a personal way of seeing things as we want them to be. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/290 "2005-07-24T14:32:55Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > How is this different from you pronouncing your “spirituality” as the Truth, and disparaging anyone who won’t accept it? Spiritually is not something you accept or reject, it is what you are. But if you wish not to believe you are spiritual it is perfectly ok with me. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/291 "2005-07-24T14:50:56Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The debate between truth(fact) and faith goes on and on, but one can believe what they want ,but once faith becomes fact it is no longer Faith,One can believe untrue things,and the majority can be wrong and have been. Just as one can dis-believe true things. Facts can be proven at one point, faith is a personal way of seeing things as we want them to be. > > Monavis Yes, but facts can not be proven by logic, only first hand personal experience can prove facts. You could not have seen a cave man’s tool would become a television. Just as you can not see humans were single-celled creatures millions of years ago. Without experience there is only speculation and theories. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/292 "2005-07-24T15:04:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the contrary. I have seen many fruitful discussions and several respectful debates between believers and non-believers on this board (which I presume is what you mean by “spiritual and secular”). I have never seen one in which you participated because you always misrepresent what those who do not believe in God actually believe, misrepresent how science works and what it has demonstrated, and lie about what scientists may have said. Thus, once you enter a discussion, there are so many efforts to correct the errors that you post, that the threads are typically derailed by your false claims. (This thread would be a good example.) > Having already disrupted this thread over your misperceptions of science, you are now taking it further afield with your claims regarding the Schiavo case. There are many believers who accept Mr. Schiavo’s narration of events over that of the Schindlers, yet you have falsely portrayed the argument over events (not the debate over what should have been done regarding Ms. Schiavo) as one between “spiritual and secular” people. You simply make it up as you go along. If I am such a disruptive individual you should ban me. Then you would have no real opposition to deal with. All those personal things you say I do, and the names you call me really define you, not me. Because one can not see the soul of another until he sees his own. One can not give love unless he first owns love, one can not give offense unless he own offence. No one can give to another what you does not own. If you haven’t noticed I have called you no names. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/293 "2005-07-24T16:11:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If I am such a disruptive individual you should ban me. Then you would have no real opposition to deal with. All those personal things you say I do, and the names you call me really define you, not me. Because one can not see the soul of another until he sees his own. > > One can not give love unless he first owns love, one can not give offense unless he own offence. No one can give to another what you does not own. > > If you haven’t noticed I have called you no names. Nice one. No, you didn’t call him any names directly. You merely _insinuated_ them. That’s just fundamentally dishonest, and IMHO not in keeping with your professed beliefs in truth and love. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/294 "2005-07-24T16:38:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Spiritually is not something you accept or reject, it is what you are. But if you wish not to believe you are spiritual it is perfectly ok with me. Nice try. You still didn’t answer my question, which had nothing to to with my rejection of spirituality, and everything to do with your hypocrisy. But if you are too afraid to give a direct answer, we will all know why. **"Belive those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it."** _–Andre Gide_ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/295 "2005-07-24T19:19:16Z")
> [@](#): > > All those personal things you say I do, and the names you call me really define you, not me. > . . . > > If you haven’t noticed I have called you no names. Well, since I have not called you any names, I would have to say that this is another example of your persistence in misrepresenting the statements of people whom you wish to slur. > [@](#): > > If I am such a disruptive individual you should ban me. Then you would have no real opposition to deal with. To date, while your continued misrepresentations regarding other people is persistent, it has always fallen inside the grey area where someone might think it was simply an “error” or “misunderstanding” on your part. Had there been a clearer example that your distortions were deliberate, you would, indeed, have been warned by now. As to “real opposition,” I think you unduly flatter yourself. There are many atheists on this board with whom I disagree on spiritual matters. I simply choose to discuss their beliefs (or lack) without lying about what those beliefs (or lack) may be. There are persons with spiritual beliefs on this board with whom I share certain core beliefs and disgree regarding different interpretations of our shared faith. I have no desire to eliminate them from the board. There are several supporters for the Iraq invasion, which I strongly oppose. I have no desire to chase them away. In fact, the only person with whom I seem to have a problem is the person who tries to tell me that Theodor Dobzhansky, Teilhard de Chardin, Denis O. Lamoureux, Kenneth Miller, Dr. Stephen C. Meyers, Conrad Hyers, Paul Seely, and other conservative (well, not de Chardin, too much) Christians are in some way denying God or spirituality with their _scientific_ defenses of evolutionary explanations of biology, then goes on to make outlandish and unsupported claims about Michael Schiavo, alcoholism, and any number of other phenomena, generally without providing any evidence beyond various false statements regarding the beliefs of others. The only “opposition” you represent is the effort I have to expend trying to keep a thread on topic after you have lobbed one of your anti-fact screeds into a discussion about which you appear to be ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/296 "2005-07-24T20:15:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Have you ever noticed how there is really no debate going on between the spiritual and the secular on this board. The secular just announces what is fact and then calls any deviation from what they announce as ignorance or worse. It’s easy, when it is a fact that can be readily proved or disproved. That’s what science is all about. A hypothesis or theory is held until it is disproved or replaced by a better one. > [@lekatt](#): > > When I post links they are never read, well maybe a paragraph or two, and never discussed. When I make a good post it is ignored. Like no. 204. That could be because your posts tend to be either an illogical mess, or outright lies. I’ve never seen you make a “good” post. > [@lekatt](#): > > I know you are fearful of truth, if you were not, every possibility would be studied. Every lead followed and considered. Well, maybe some day. I like the truth. It’s elegant, simple and pure. It requires almost no what-ifs or strawman arguments, it requires nothing to be cherry picked or taken out of context. It does not require blind faith in the false words of some self enriching witch doctor from some evangelical revival tent TV show. It just is what it is. You are the one who has problems with the truth. > [@lekatt](#): > > As Carl Sagan said: “to be skeptical of everything is insanity.” And to believe everything is stupid. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. If you believe everything you read, you better stop reading. There’s a sucker born every minute. I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn, and some ocean front property in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/297 "2005-07-24T20:48:35Z")
And if you haven’t noticed, **lekatt** , he called you no names. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/298 "2005-07-25T03:06:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And if you haven’t noticed, **lekatt** , he called you no names. He called me a liar, more than once, for starters. But I forgave him. I made this post in response to skeptical remarks about NDEs, it was not mentioned by anyone on this board. Not hard to verify it. > [@](#): > > I realize science can not measure spiritual things, but most are ready to say there is nothing beyond the material world. > > On NDEs, there exists good scientific evidence that consciousness lives beyond the death of the body. Controlled studies show this. the Pam Reynolds surgery is a bench mark case of evidence of life after death. It has been the subject of books, magazine articles and TV documentaries. It is not that the evidence doesn’t exist it is the denail of scientists that makes it appear not to exist. > But this is changing, more research is being done and more researchers are believing. > > All serious researchers of NDEs, I mean those that read the NDE materials, interview the experiencers, and write about their studies in a scientific manner, come to respect the individuals who have them. Most become believers. > > The reason they become believers is the profound personally changes NDEers go through after their experiences. These personality changes are dramatic and long-term, like the rest of their lives. Many go back to school and become teachers or counselors, some write books, give lectures, even build centers of service to others. Some volunteer at hospitals and hospices. Nearly all begin some kind of service to their fellow man. They have lost their desire to become rich and/or famous. The world is forever seen in a different way. The reason for this is the knowledge gained from the experience. We experience the “ghost in the machine” and know the reality of a higher intelligence. Now the experience doesn’t change them, they change themselves after “seeing the light” and want to get in step with reality. > > This part of the near death experience is what makes believers out of skeptics. > > There is nothing in the form of delusions, illusions, drugs, dissociation, or any other means known that has the ability to cause people to change so. [http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html](http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html) The above is research done the the University of Arizona. [http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1693](http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1693) The above is research done by Dr. Pim Van Lommel and his team at Hospital Rijnstate in the Netherlands [http://www.ntdaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/01/21/41f0a79e73d4c](http://www.ntdaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/01/21/41f0a79e73d4c) Quotes from the above research. “Consciousness may be more than just a product of brain activity, according to Dr. Jan Holden, a professor in NT’s department of Counseling Development and Higher Education. Holden is involved with a study on near death experiences at the University of Virginia” “Changes in values and attitudes and the most uniform change that is virtually unanimous among near death experiencers is the complete loss of fear of death. NDEers say that there is no such thing as death of consciousness.” she said. “Paradoxical changes happen in that state of consciousness.” [http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=609&id=999952003](http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=609&id=999952003) The research above is about psychic ability. I could go on posting many more links of research being done by real scientists, but I won’t. If you want to know truth you will read and learn what is happening in the world of science regarding near death experiences and related subjects. If you prefer to call this post lies, misrepresentations and such as usually done by the majority of uninformed posters it is your loss. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/299 "2005-07-25T03:24:20Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you prefer to call this post lies, misrepresentations and such as usually done by the majority of uninformed posters it is your loss. If you prefer to continue avoiding my question because you find it inconvenient or embarrassing, it reveals all we need to know about you. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > How is this different from you pronouncing your “spirituality” as the Truth, and disparaging anyone who won’t accept it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/300 "2005-07-25T03:46:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > He called me a liar, more than once, for starters. But I forgave him. Actually, I have not. I have noted that you have posted falsehoods, even lies, on the SDMB, but I have not _yet_ called you a liar. If you persist in this behavior, of course, I may be willing to reconsider that situation. Your forgiveness is as phony as your claims regarding science, so you may extend it or withhold it at your pleasure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716.md?page=16)