# Science is screwing up the battle for America's minds. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716 "2005-07-15T21:06:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/301 "2005-07-25T10:14:52Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, but facts can not be proven by logic, only first hand personal experience can prove facts. You could not have seen a cave man’s tool would become a television. Just as you can not see humans were single-celled creatures millions of years ago. Without experience there is only speculation and theories. Logic can only be logicial if it is indeed the truth.The dictionary defines logic as:The science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. One can determine a fact such as DNA evidence, carbon dating etc. one doesn’t have to be an eye witness when provable trails are left behind, Such as: If the ground is wet for several miles one can be sure it rained. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/302 "2005-07-25T11:44:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, I have not. I have noted that you have posted falsehoods, even lies, on the SDMB, but I have not _yet_ called you a liar. If you persist in this behavior, of course, I may be willing to reconsider that situation. > > Your forgiveness is as phony as your claims regarding science, so you may extend it or withhold it at your pleasure. Your post #275, “you are lying” Where I come from “you are lying” is no different than “you are a liar.” My forgiveness is real, very real, however it is not for your sake, it is for my sake. Just another of those spiritual principles. Now about the rest of my post? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/303 "2005-07-25T11:47:01Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Logic can only be logicial if it is indeed the truth.The dictionary defines logic as:The science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. > > One can determine a fact such as DNA evidence, carbon dating etc. one doesn’t have to be an eye witness when provable trails are left behind, Such as: If the ground is wet for several miles one can be sure it rained. > > Monavis There is a great deal of logical thinking that proves false. Carbon dating is not an absolute. Dew can also cause wet land and grass. Now, how about the rest of my post? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/304 "2005-07-25T12:43:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > My forgiveness is real, very real, however it is not for your sake, it is for my sake. > Just another of those spiritual principles. Like the intellectual content of your arguments, your spirituality is very shallow. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/305 "2005-07-25T12:56:00Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Your post #275, “you are lying” > > Where I come from “you are lying” is no different than “you are a liar.” I see. However, here we realize that one can call a statement a lie, and still realize that the person who said it may not be in the habit of constantly lying. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/306 "2005-07-25T14:31:45Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I see. However, here we realize that one can call a statement a lie, and still realize that the person who said it may not be in the habit of constantly lying. The sentence was “you are lying” that is a personal statement. Not “the statement you made was a lie”. Please just stick with the face value of what I say and others say, when you try to interpret meaning, all you get is spin. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/307 "2005-07-25T14:41:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Like the intellectual content of your arguments, your spirituality is very shallow. Really not looking for intellectual content in what I say, just looking for the truth of what is real and what isn’t. Since you don’t know me, your opinion of my spiritual depth is just your theory. Some non-spiritual people believe those who try to follow the guidelines of Jesus and other Master teachers are weak. But it takes great courage to love one another until the knowledge of “why” is discovered. Try it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/308 "2005-07-25T14:47:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The sentence was “you are lying” that is a personal statement. Um, no. See, the phrase “you are lying” refer to tom calling you a liar at this point in time. It indicates the following meaning “you are lying (at this moment)” Not as a summery of your entire past. Much as I dislike\*\* tom\*\*, I have to admit that you are the one putting a spin on a statement, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/309 "2005-07-25T14:55:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Really not looking for intellectual content in what I say, just looking for the truth of what is real and what isn’t. > > Since you don’t know me, your opinion of my spiritual depth is just your theory. **Fear Itself** doesn’t know a thing about your spiritual depth. He can only judge from the words you post. Same with me. Using that guideline, however, I have come to the same conclusion he has. You might be the nicest person in the world, but all I can tell from your posts is that you are an especially dogmatic Christian who believes that all roads lead to the republicans being right. Also, you see nothing wrong with your attitude towards other people. Thus, you assume that you are demonstrating “love”, unlike anyone else here. > [@](#): > > Some non-spiritual people believe those who try to follow the guidelines of Jesus and other Master teachers are weak. But it takes great courage to love one another until the knowledge of “why” is discovered. Try it sometime. You first. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/310 "2005-07-25T14:57:10Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If you prefer to continue avoiding my question because you find it inconvenient or embarrassing, it reveals all we need to know about you. Perhaps if you show me where I actually said what you say I said, we could go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/311 "2005-07-25T15:16:00Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Perhaps if you show me where I actually said what you say I said, we could go from there. How about this, [from your post, #286](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/report.php?p=6400007) > [@lekatt](#): > > When I post links they are never read, well maybe a paragraph or two, and never discussed. When I make a good post it is ignored. Like no. 204. > > I know you are fearful of truth, if you were not, every possibility would be studied. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/312 "2005-07-25T15:21:59Z")
Sorry, bad link. [From your post, #286](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6400007&postcount=286). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/313 "2005-07-25T16:28:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Where I come from “you are lying” is no different than “you are a liar.” Color me surprised that “where [you] come from” they don’t speak the way that I do. If I decide to call you a liar, I will not use a separate expression to do it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/314 "2005-07-25T18:46:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Color me surprised that “where [you] come from” they don’t speak the way that I do. If I decide to call you a liar, I will not use a separate expression to do it. Well, Tom, I won’t go any deeper with you into the depths of personal insults. It is not debating and it is not constructive. My post #298 backed up my previous posts with scientific studies, and good clean logic. They explain better than I that evidence of spirit and life after death exists. If someone wishes to discuss the evidence, I will be happy to do so. If not then I will leave this thread, so the personal attacks will stop. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/315 "2005-07-25T19:08:24Z")
> [@](#): > > If not then I will leave this thread, so the personal attacks will stop. Well, don’t start them in any other thread, either. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/316 "2005-07-25T21:27:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, don’t start them in any other thread, either. I never start them. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/317 "2005-07-25T22:20:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I never start them. Liar. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/318 "2005-07-25T22:26:28Z")
Now, now. He can’t possibly levy a personal attack at you. He doesn’t _know_ you personally. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/319 "2005-07-26T10:24:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is a great deal of logical thinking that proves false. Carbon dating is not an absolute. Dew can also cause wet land and grass. > > Now, how about the rest of my post? Dew goes only on some objests, when it rains everyhting gets wet that is not covered. When I see puddles and the streets for miles are wet I can be assured it rained,and can easily tell the difference from dew. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716/320 "2005-07-26T10:26:53Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Dew goes only on some objests, when it rains everyhting gets wet that is not covered. When I see puddles and the streets for miles are wet I can be assured it rained,and can easily tell the difference from dew. > > Monavis Wow\< I should have checked my typos before I sent the above answer. I guess I am a perfect human being…It is human to error…at least that is what I have heard. Monavis [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-is-screwing-up-the-battle-for-americas-minds/312716.md?page=17)