Science is screwing up the battle for America's minds.

Indeed science is A work of humans,there is a lot that can be proven, science does not state that it has all the answers, A lot of Religions do; what they can’t explain they call it a Mystery,and you should just accept it. But in the past when Science and religion has differed Science was proved right in the long run. After many years religion then accepts it but there are many that still cling to old ideas.

I do feel if a person doesn’t want to accept science’s explaination, they are free to do so, If they want to believe the earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth it sure doesn’t hurt my feelings. If they are afraid that the scientific explaination puts doubt into their faith that is a problem for them to work out. When science has some theory that is proven false they are not upset, they go on the try to find what is true.

Archeology,history and geology have proven (by science) that a lot of religious beliefs of the past were not correct.

Monavis

I agree there are many doctors who believe in a God,belief doesn’t come by the intellect, but by what we want, and many people do not question or study into religion, they do not look into it,they are happy to accept what they were taught without question. That is why it is called faith.

Monavis

Most doctors I know have some God concept. Some Catholics, Protestants, Jews (including Orthodox), Hindii, etc … All of them use their faiths well. Their religions help guide them as to what is important. For them religion is about personal values. It also helps provide a sense of community - Bible Camp, Church missions, Torah study classes and Social Action groups, etc. The non-religious use secular value systems for the same things. But for how things work they all know to look to science.

Goodness. If doctors went to the Bible for medical advice we’d be burning down the houses of those with infectious diseases! (Check out the public health directives in Leviticus.)

I disagree. Fundamentalists may follow what you say somewhat, but Christians hold such varied beliefs of what God consists of and does, that it is impossible to pin down. I doubt any two believers in God hold exactly the same beliefs. I can’t imagine a God that punishes His followers by an eternal Hell to be something that makes the followers happy. Most believers in God that I know use their intellect to study and learn about their religion and other religions. It is not solely on faith.
It is not solely on what they were taught, and it is not solely on intellect. It is a combination and integration of all three. But the real determinate, the event that changes beliefs and lives comes from experience.

Yes, I agree, religion is a personal value, and a personal bond between God and man. No one can force that understanding, it has to be an honest and natural committment. Doctors can disagree with evolution and still be good doctors.
Doctors can agree with evolution and still be good doctors. Looking to science for how things work is natural when dealing with material problems. But I wouldn’t totally discount the teachings of Jesus in the Bible. Spiritual methods have cured many of depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, and other “psyche” problems.

Too often in the battle between science and religion, both sides forget they need each other to accomplish their goals.

Could there be hope for leakatt yet? This is scary, we actually agree some! Even if we would disagree about the how and why strong religious faith can sometimes help with a variety of problems, I would agree with you that it can ocassionally do so. Faith is not a bad thing even if sometimes people do bad things justified by faith.

I quibble with the last point. Religion does not need science to accomplish its goals of providing values; science does not need religion to create predictive models of how the material world functions. But human societies function best when they utilize both a system of values (generally at least inspired by religious values, even if a few steps removed), and have accurate predictive models of the material world. Both work best when they stick to what they are good at.

We keep letting this thread get hijacked. In fact, it seems that more of this thread has been devoted to hijacks than to the OP. It’s no wonder that scientists can’t get the general public to understand science, when even on the Straight Dope we discuss things that have nothing to do with science in a thread purportedly about science.

For example, when lekatt threw out the “half an eye” standard, everyone replied with how religious most doctors are, and how that doesn’t detract from belief in evolution. So what? Religion has nothing to do with the science behind evolution. They are completely independent.

Instead, we should have led lekatt (or, more importantly, the other readers who might be swayed by his half an argument) to the talkorigins discussion of the half-an-eye argument.

We should then explain how Darwin’s thoughts on the human eye can be studied using the scientific method:
Question: How did the human eye come to be?
Observations: <very numerous observations that led Darwin to formulate the theory of evolution through natural selection, see other threads here and on talkorigins>; the human eye is a complex organ that focuses light on a retina, on to numerous nerve endings, and from those nerve endings to the optic nerve and on to the brain
Hypothesis: The human eye evolved from simpler structures through natural selection.

Prediction 1: If the human eye evolved through natural selection, numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple can be shown to exist.
Darwin gave some of these examples on those following three pages of The Origin of Species. I encourage anyone who thinks this prediction is false to read that section, and do some searching online. If this prediction is ever proved false, we will have to reevaluate whether the human eye evolved through natural selection. Thus far, it has not.

Prediction 2: If the human eye evolved through natural selection, the eye must vary ever so slightly and the variations can be inherited.
We now have a very large collection of data explaining how visible features such as the eye are programmed in our DNA. Our DNA can mutate, and those mutations can be passed on to offspring.

Prediction 3: If the human eye evolved through natural selection, changes to the eye that help an organism survive to reproduce should lead to more offspring for the individual with the changed eye than individuals with an unchanged or otherwise changed eye.
This one seems logically self-evident to me (if something has a better chance to reproduce, it has a better chance to reproduce), but we could also test this scientifically. Just for a wild example off the top of my head, we could surgically alter some rats in a sample to be able to see their food better than others, and then measure the number of offspring of those rats vs. their competitors. Controls would have to be put in place to try to ensure that the eye surgery was the cause of the increased offspring, of course. Your homework: devise a better experiment to test this one than the one I devised. Extra credit: find a paper on Pubmed (or elsewhere) in which such a test was carried out.

So, back to the op… the reason science is losing the battle seems to me to be that we’re fighting it on the enemy’s terms. We’re arguing about things that have nothing to do with the battle. Rather than explaining what science is, we spend all of our time nitpicking what science is not, and, more often, what individual scientists might think about things that have nothing to do with science.

Um, Jon … I don’t think he actually used the “half an eye” canard. Just a story about how a doctor believes that the eye is so complex that it had to be designed. Sort of a fictional secondhand argument from authority. Wrong room to play it in.

Anyway, some of these hijacks have actually circled the op. One of the first points for why segments of America are distrustful of science and turning to anti-intellectual perspectives was that there is a perception that science is placed in opposition to religion and faith. Much of the meanderings have fleshed out how this is not the case if each stick to what they do well.

Agreed that it is important to define what science is - the creation of models that predict future observations and thereby guide the pursuit of further knowledge and better models yet. The best way to understand how material world works and to harness these workings for the benefit of all. Your assignment, should you or anyone else choose to accept it: design a soundbite freindly media package that gets that out to people, preferably with humor.

Cite please. What religions claim to have all the answers? And while I’m sure that one or two do what are our grounds for claiming it is a ‘lot’?

Was it really? Proved right by whom exactly, and using what technique? I am hoping that you are going to name an impartial and objective arbitrator and not say that the proof is public opinion or scientific consensus. Because one is an appeal to popularity and the other is a circular argument, and neither is going to pass muster on this forum.

And if you do name an impartial and objective arbitrator then you are going to have to provide a reference showing that science has been proved right in>50% of disputes.

Seriously, this claim appears to be total nonsense, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt let you provide your references before declaring that to be the case.

Yes, and theology has proven, by faith, that a lot of scientific beliefs of both the past and present were not and are not correct. So what?

This is a blatant circular argument. We know that science is correct and religion is wrong because science has declared that it is right and religion is wrong. You can’t use this sort of illogic in GD and get away with it.

I think we have found an area of agreement. But I will explain further the “need each other” statement. Religion needs the critical thinking and logic of science to balance their beliefs in truth, and science needs religion to balance its amoral nature into positive constructive pursuits for mankind.

Are you denying the existence of morality outside of a religious context?

I do not know of any religion that is not faith based. Science does not try to disclaim religion, but many religions do try to distort science when it differs from the beliefs or their creeds. Look at Ancient history. In spite of all the arguments,(circular or not) the fact is; Many religions try to disclaim science. If Science challenges the beliefs of a religion (such as the earth the center of the universe etc.) then that religion says science is wrong. There are a group of people who want to leave the Union and form their own state, because they want the Bible to be the law of the land. People are always quoting Jesus, or the Bible, but doing so is just an act of faith. As I have stated before this is a free country and one can believe what ever they want, If they are afraid Science is going to destroy their faith that is a personal thing, if they were truly sure of faith it wouldn’t bother them;so there must be a little doubt in their minds for them to even be worried.

Monavis

As Jon said, we’re getting off topic - however I think we’re demonstrating in microcosm what the problem is, at least in part.

The very fact that the OP was phrased “Science is screwing up the battle for America’s minds” demonstrates that such a battle appears to exist. It’s a self-perpetuating problem - there are two sides, each disagreeing with each other. This very situation causes people to pick sides - or have sides picked for them by parents, peers, teachers, whatever.

Once someone is on one side of any argument, they’ll often not be prepared to accept anything from the other side. Any claims or points made by one side are just dismissed by the majority of individuals on the other. This is not helped by the fact that often the most dedicated “believers” are the most outspoken, talking their less ardent compatriots round to their point of view.

In this sort of situation, if one group raises a point that the other would probably not be too bothered about, it too is contended simply because, well, everything those guys say is rubbish, isn’t it? Because each side has little contact with the other, neither side know much about the other - often what they “know” has been told to them by people on their side of the debate.

In this case, then, we have scientists who consider all religious types to be credulous fools, and religious people who think all scientists are arrogant idiots who think they know everything. There are people who won’t just shut up and listen - the same old arguments crop up every time.

Of course, this doesn’t cover everyone - that’s the point. Some people do manage to sit on the fence, or have sympathetic tendencies to the opposition. Most people on this board, for instance, are nowhere near as inflexible as I’m suggesting a lot of people are.

As Blake pointed out, science can prove itself right using scientific methods, and religion can show itself to be correct using faith-based arguments. The two aren’t compatible - you can’t measure one with the other, and show which is ultimately “right”. If this can be understood by people, and explained to children, we can prevent the “battle” from existing. The incompatibility means that debating the point is largely valueless. Scientific evidence can’t be used to counter religious belief - they’re based on different axioms. It can show contrary information, sure, but it doesn’t prove the religion wrong. So prevent fundamentalists from questioning all that is taught in school science classes, and convince members of the scientific community that all are welcome to their own beliefs, and we can allow both the scientific potential, and the religious strength, of the country (or world) to grow.

Together we’re stronger, etc.

Science has never declared any thing about religion;Religion is a set of beliefs. I have never heard or read any scientific paper or lecture declaring religion false. All that I have experienced about Science is that science lets truth revel itself. some times it takes many years, if the scientist is wrong he rejoices when the truth is found. Astronomy is one science, that if what is known today was known in Galileo day would have changed history.

Name one incident where theology has proven anything by faith?

Monavis

Actually, there was nothing in the OP that required “sides.” The OP noted that the scientific community was failing to present the message of the necessity of good science (particularly in education) to the public, at large. It then explicitly asked what steps could be taken to remedy that situation.

No “sides” at all.

Within the first several posts, we had identified three separate factors that could interfere with the necessary message. One, of course, was interference from religious opponents of particular scientific information. However, two others included problems with the very methodology of teaching science and problems with some (non-religious) forms of popular thought that held as equal and competing world views scientific method and personal belief.

While there were some shots at religious belief, which was, admittedly, mentioned in the OP (but as one example of anti-scientific teaching, not as a cause), the thread was not really derailed until actual adherents of the “all beliefs are equal” and “science is anti-god” systems actually began posting attacks in the thread.

We could (in theory) have carried out this entire discussion as an exercise in finding better ways to present science to the broader community. Instead, we found adherents of “sides” interrupting the thread to hijack it.

(Mind you, we still have some residual battling going on with people who are more than willing to pit science against religion so that they can declare a winner, but the thread did not have to go that way and does not have to continue in that direction.)

“In THIS corner, in the red shorts, weighing in a two HUNdred and ELEven POUNDAs we have SCIENCE. and in THIS corner, in the blue shorts, weighing in one hundred and ninety SIX poundas, we have RELIGION! Now we want a clean fight boys, no hittin’ below the Bible Belt. Come out swingin’.”

Nah. No clear winners even on TKO. The battle is less sides to take than a battle against anti-intellectualism hiding behind any of various facades. The challenge is how to better market what science really is and to better promote real science education in a country that seems to like its ideas as fast and easy to chew as its food. And as full of empty calories.

Well no, the OP didn’t require sides - but the title hinted at the almost inevitable adherents of “sides” interrupting the thread. If we could sort these things out to general consensus in the first few replies, it wouldn’t belong in GD. :wink:

Alright then… students of any age will learn things much more readily if they want to learn. If we can get people (specifically children) interested in science and scientific methods, then we’re 90% of the way there. How best to do it? Well, as has been mentioned before, cutting edge science is just not graspable to the layman. So we’ve got to aim lower.

By instilling the interesting side of basic science in students, ie what good this particular branch is to the world, we can convince them that it’s worth pursuing further. Look, white light is made up of different colours. Dull. That’s how your TV works, look. Interesting. Demonstrate exciting things. Drop some Caesium in water (well, alright, not Caesium) - the boys in the class at least will probably like the explosion.

Point out how useful observation, hypothesis, test, conclusion is. I turned out to be a scientist but I got the impression that all of that was only for boring science reports at school. No. It’s applicable to everyday life. It’s let me work out which fuse has thrown all the switches in the house by methodically testing theories. It’s helped me countless times when fixing a computer problem. It even got me my previous job (IT helpdesk - no work experience but an analytical mind). If we can demonstrate this to people then we’re off. It’s not some nebulous entity guys in white coats dabble in - it’s real world stuff.

Unfortunately the current testing happy mileiu does not adapt well to teaching kids to question how they know what they know and do they really know it - What does the evidence actually show? does it show what it is claimed to show? what are alternative hypotheses? how would you find out more to help choose between them?

It was my translation of the OP’s question as to why science is screwing up peoples minds.
If some one’s mind is screwed up it is because that person can not handle what science is providing,and perhaps are afraid their beliefs may be wrong, or challenged at the least. It is not Science but their fear of what may be the truth. If their faith is strong enough it will not screw up their minds.

Monavis