It was strictly their faith in what they were taught,they believed they would share in the Resurection and death of Jesus. They gave a tenth of their wages to further the cause (as indicated by the couple who were supposedly struck dead by lightening because they held back some of their earnings). Remember in those days there was no news papers, and people did not have the world wide or even country wide news like we have today. For most part the word was spread by word of mouth, so it was slow going. It took days to get to towns that today takes just hours, the early followers went by foot or donkey. Most people did not read or write and had no way to know if someone was a witness or not. Of course they had food to eat etc. if that is your implacation, for their physical needs.
The story that Jesus fed thousands with a few fishes was truly believed at least that is what the Bible tells, but if they were home instead of listening to Jesus they would not have needed to be fed.
What else would they need? I thought one of the fundamental principles of religion is that all you need is a set of beliefs that satisfy you, and faith that they are true. Having some fellow believers is an optional extra.
Religion sustained by anything other than faith is just a scam, IMO, but then I’m not religious (although I am faithful )
You don’t understand religion at all. Before one can have faith in anything there must be experience. If this were not true you could decide to have faith in clouds. Then the day would come with no clouds in the sky, and your faith would be shattered. You just can’t say I have faith in God and that is religion. Why don’t you try finding out what religion really means.
It was this sort of concern that brought looking for you folks. I don’t know if there is a thing that we are doing wrong, or, if we are just not doing the right things for a long enough period of time? As far as losing ground, that is a perspective I never oblige. So, let me ask you where you are losing ground? Have you picked you battles wisely. Are you prepared, when you win, to keep going? Or do you chalk up the most recent win, call it good and grab the bong? Science will keep advancing, people will continue to vote for worthless liars who only seek immediate self gratification, and I, well, I am going to keep hittin’ the bubbler next to me…
What you call the ghost in the machine I call religious fascism. Probably a close meaning for two different words. And why blame anyone? That is what the religious fascist does. They are truly a worthless breed, I would call them sub-human, however, I love Jesus, and he says I should feed and clothe them. So, I do what I can.
Communication is where you and I come in. We can talk about everything. It is our lack of self-control that creates a barrier to effective communication. In here I can expose the evil of the religious fascist without the worries of being jailed and destroyed in the local media. Ultimately, all things are to be made right, (whatever right is) and all are made to know the truth.
If there is one way to fix anything, you must start talkin’ about it. Since people are insensed by a witness for God, well, he is not the only subject I can talk about. We are at the “Straight Dope” message board, so let’s talk Dope. Effective communication starts with getting the person’s attention.
So, I walk into church and start complaining about being economically disadvantaged because, well, How can I compete with the “Legal marijuana money” coming in from every state that borders mine? (Idaho and Utah are not legal, yet; every state that borders Idaho is) Remember, they don’t have to like what you say, they just have to listen. If you want to effect change remember that no one ever accepts what they hear for the first time. So repeat yourself, over and over. I found a whole group of people who wanted to hear more. ( I have found a cause worth fighting for) The popularity of my “grow your own” campaign will expand far beyond anything the religious fascist can talk about.
So, let’s review. Know yourself, know your audience, and know your enemy.
The dictionary gives the definition of religion as: a set of beliefs; people with the same beliefs form a religion, such as Christianity, Islam,Buddhism,Judasim, etc. First they believe what they were taught or what they feel they can accept. I see nothing wrong with a person believing anything, that is their right,hence there are many religions teaching different things;if the people are satisfied and it helps them to live a good life and to help others there is no harm. Harm comes when a fanatic group wants others to believe as they do or think anyone who believes differently is a heratic, such as the fanatical Muslims, etc. do. Most muslims do not. The main stream people of most religions do not feel every one must believe as they do.
Faith comes with out experience, once what one believes becomes known it is no longer faith. One can believe they experience something, and attribute it to religion,it is a belief that they had a religious experience,because they attribute it to religion.
Faith means accepting without experience or knowledge, that is why it is called faith.
Once you experience something it is no longer faith,it is experience;An example: you may have faith that a certain food tastes good, but once you experience it by tasting, then you can know for sure if it was good or not. You no longer just believe the food was that way(good or bad) you know form experience.
A post script:
In My belief everyone believes or does not believe “in” God, for to me we are all a part of a greater whole that is God. Notice I said my belief.
This is degenerating into a rehash of “Contact”. You experience something and believe that it is God. Others might believe that you what experienced was the result of some ergot that got into your bagel or a stress-induced psychotic episode.
You have faith that what you believe is the truth, and you experienced the presence of God.
Since you cannot share your experience with the sceptics they cannot be convinced. Since they lack your experiene they are in no position to comment on the validity of your faith.
Experience is necessarily personal, therefore not evidence, therefore religious belief is primarily a matter of faith in something that cannot be objectively proved. While I am uneducated in these matters, I was under the impression that this was pretty much one of the key points of Christianity, and the explanation for why god did e.g. write “Believe in me or else” across the sky to clear up doubts as to his existence. No faith, no religion. If you could get a direct line to god every time you prayed, he would be part of the material world not the spiritual, and thought it wasn’t supposed to work that way?
Or have all these philosophers been missing a trick over the centuries? Is there some objective proof that god exists so we can lay this debate to rest and move having religious faith into the same league as KNOWING that clouds exist? I believe in clouds because I presonally see them regularly, am familiar with their properties, can relate them to analogous phenomena, have heard coherent explanations of their existence which display excellent predictive ability, and have met many people who experience them in exactly the same way. I do not believe in god because not only have I never had a religious experience, those who have had one do not exhibit any degree of consistency of experience or interpretation.
The way I read this is that what you are expressing is the contemporary view of religion. However, the Bible claims that once upon a time, every single Jew was able to personally witness God in action. No faith needed. There is a miracle, right in front of you. Look, the sea is splitting in half! Look, he just struck that rock and water came out. Look, that guy just made loafs of bread multiply before our eyes. Nowadays, nothing has changed in the world, but we are still told to believe that there was some time in history when god personally intervened, while there is no such thing now. Most fantasy books , such as “Good Omens” make up a non-interference truce between Good and the Devil, but Christians have no such explanation. They make up the claim “There is no point in believing in God, based on actual proof.” and ignore the fact that it was fine for their forefathers. :rolleyes: Even if they claimed that their ancestors were more righteous than them, they don’t have a leg to stand on, re: incidents like Lot sleeping with his daughters, and so on.
That might be why so many people are obsessed with proving that Noah’s Ark was real. They say: “It really happened, and we can prove it did. All this stuff about metaphors is garbage.”
My understanding was that strict literalism in interpretation is a relatively recent phenomenon, and the bible was originally understood to be metaphorical. I’d be interested to hear more on this from those better educated than I.
However, I stand by my original assertion that a religion MUST involve faith in the intangible. If Bob stood up in the office tomorrow and started working miracles, I don’t think it would be a particularly spiritual if I was to become a follower of his. He has magic powers and can defy the powers of the universe :eek: . Of course I’m going to follow him around like a good little worshipper. Who would deny anything to someone who can presumably cause your head to pop like a pimple merely by wishing it? But that would make me a hanger-on rather than a disciple.
And to circle back to the OP, if this is framed as a ‘battle’ between two sides, one devoted to the intangible and the other devoted to the tangible, it’s hardly surprising that it is difficult to find common ground. Neither is it surprising that the ‘intangibles’ are doing so well, since it’s no secret that humanity has a very powerful spiritual and idealistic side - belief is a hugely potent force, whether it is belief in religion, marxism, democracy or equal rights.
As has been alluded to before, science and faith fulfil two very different needs in society, and it’s not realistic to assume either can be dispensed with. However, since the zealots on either side have blind faith in their creed, it’s likely that the squabbling will continue.
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