# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/181 "2019-07-27T03:46:04Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > I’m just tired of the bullshit. Just say what you came here to say from the very moment you started this thread. > > If you legitimately have some sort of solution, some end game, some wonder cure, just please say it. THEN we can START the discussion. What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You’re saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it? Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough? I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/182 "2019-07-27T03:48:40Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > The femcel cites were interesting. Not the older, divorced or widowed women using the term unknowingly, and not the ripsnorting bullshit at Quillette, but the ones who claimed to be a part of the incel boards. Note that one had to pretend to be a man in the forums. I’m not sure what this proves to you. It supports my saying that “incel” is not indicative of both genders, because the misogyny is unavoidable and women are typically banned from there. The term is going to be problematic no matter how determined you are to restore its rightful place in the world. It doesn’t matter what I do. As long as women continue to apply the word “incel” to themselves you will continue to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/183 "2019-07-27T03:48:50Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You’re saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it? > > Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough? > > I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well. How many times do you need to hear/read “incels need to work on themselves and not blame others” for you to get it? ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/184 "2019-07-27T03:52:53Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > How many times do you need to hear/read “incels need to work on themselves and not blame others” for you to get it? That’s a nice platitude but it doesn’t actually solve anything for the ones that still won’t make the cut after “working on themselves and not blaming others.” I mean, so an autistic man “works on himself”, still doesn’t get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man. Problem solved, huh? That’s still the best we can do? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/185 "2019-07-27T03:54:59Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You’re saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it? > > Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough? > > I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well. Also, I’m 90% sure you have had an idea to solve this problem from the very beginning. But now that we’ve already called bullshit on it, you are backpedaling. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/186 "2019-07-27T03:56:59Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > empty SJW culture war bullshit Oh okay, we’re going there now. I’ll make my exit and leave you to your whining then. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/187 "2019-07-27T03:57:22Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > That’s a nice platitude but it doesn’t actually solve anything for the ones that still won’t make the cut after “working on themselves and not blaming others.” I mean, so an autistic man “works on himself”, still doesn’t get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man. > > Problem solved, huh? That’s still the best we can do? So you’re saying they SHOULD blame others? Or are you just ignoring what all “working on themselves” actually can entail? ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/188 "2019-07-27T04:02:37Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > So you’re saying they SHOULD blame others? Or are you just ignoring what all “working on themselves” actually can entail? What does blame have to do with wanting to help someone who is suffering and suicidal? We have all sorts of initiatives to help people when they are desperate. eg. Most places have some form of welfare for people who can’t get a job. If someone needs to take advantage of such a service, it doesn’t mean that person should “blame someone” for the fact that they can’t get a job or not work on trying to get a job. It just means we recognize they need a bit of help and we’re willing to provide it until hopefully they can succeed on their own. Or if they are permanently disabled, we typically support them indefinitely. I’m not saying those are equivalent problems or solutions. Just that “blame” has nothing to do with the equation. Eg. No one intends to have an autistic child and no person intends to be born autistic. Ditto with deformities or other problems. So how can anyone be blamed for it? Are you a social Darwinist in general or just on this issue? I have nothing against someone who is a social Darwinist as long as they are applying the principle consistently across the board. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/189 "2019-07-27T04:14:14Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > What does blame have to do with wanting to help someone who is suffering and suicidal? We have all sorts of initiatives to help people when they are desperate. eg. Most places have some form of welfare for people who can’t get a job. If someone needs to take advantage of such a service, it doesn’t mean that person should “blame someone” for the fact that they can’t get a job or not work on trying to get a job. It just means we recognize they need a bit of help and we’re willing to provide it until hopefully they can succeed on their own. Or if they are permanently disabled, we typically support them indefinitely. > > I’m not saying those are equivalent problems or solutions. Just that “blame” has nothing to do with the equation. Eg. No one intends to have an autistic child and no person intends to be born autistic. Ditto with deformities or other problems. So how can anyone be blamed for it? > > Are you a social Darwinist in general or just on this issue? I have nothing against someone who is a social Darwinist as long as they are applying the principle consistently across the board. I wasn’t saying they should blame anyone. I was asking you if they should. So since we’re in agreement on that, ok. You’ve mentioned giving them help. I’m all for that. Psychological/psychiatric help can work wonders. That is but one part of…listen carefully…working on themselves. Or do you have a different idea about giving them “a bit of help”? ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/190 "2019-07-27T04:30:44Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > I wasn’t saying they should blame anyone. I was asking you if they should. > > So since we’re in agreement on that, ok. You’ve mentioned giving them help. I’m all for that. Psychological/psychiatric help can work wonders. That is but one part of…listen carefully…working on themselves. Or do you have a different idea about giving them “a bit of help”? Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don’t think forceably drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping. It’s that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It’s not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel. The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality (“misogyny!”) and otherwise they’d do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won’t be able to “work on themselves” sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off. I mean sure, everyone should “work on themselves”, but what happens to the ones where that is not enough? Or they try and fail? Why can’t we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill? And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can’t give them the real thing? Wouldn’t that make more sense to try to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/191 "2019-07-27T04:49:00Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don’t think forceably Let me stop you right there. I am vehemently against forcing anyone to give up their own autonomy as long as they aren’t infringing on others’ autonomy. Tho I admit there might be some debatable exceptions. So far you haven’t convinced me of such. > [@](#): > > …forcing drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping. who’s generalizing now? > [@](#): > > It’s that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It’s not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel. > > The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality (“misogyny!”) i think most here are saying it’s more than that > [@](#): > > and otherwise they’d do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won’t be able to “work on themselves” sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off. > > I mean sure, everyone should “work on themselves”, but what happens to the ones where that is not enough? Or they try and fail? you tell me. Please, just say what you have been dancing around this whole time > [@](#): > > Why can’t we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill? we do already. > [@](#): > > And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can’t give them the real thing? Wouldn’t that make more sense to try to accomplish? Again, please stop wasting everyone’s time and say what you came here to say. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/192 "2019-07-27T05:01:47Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Let me stop you right there. I am vehemently against forcing anyone to give up their own autonomy as long as they aren’t infringing on others’ autonomy. Tho I admit there might be some debatable exceptions. So far you haven’t convinced me of such. > > who’s generalizing now? > > i think most here are saying it’s more than that you tell me. Please, just say what you have been dancing around this whole time we do already. > > Again, please stop wasting everyone’s time and say what you came here to say. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but that’s the extent of my thoughts on the matter. If you’ve exhausted your idea supply as well, then perhaps we can stop talking and wait to see if anyone else has any other ideas or thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/193 "2019-07-27T05:21:06Z")
I agree with everyone who says that the spin and conclusions drawn from this body of research are, shall we say…unfortunate. But can we also acknowledge that these study findings are in and of themselves rather hair raising, even if what is left out is the even darker picture of men that could be painted by looking at a different set of studies? While incels and the MRA crowd are definitely full of shit, the evidence would tend to lead an objective observer to the conclusion that social scientists, ardent feminists, and the politically correct Twitterati are also just as full of feces. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/194 "2019-07-27T06:49:30Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don’t think forceably drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping. It’s that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It’s not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel. > > The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality (“misogyny!”) and otherwise they’d do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won’t be able to “work on themselves” sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off. Are you saying that most incels are autistic, terribly ugly disabled and/or mentally ill? BTW, while sex work might be illegal in many places, if an incel cannot find a sex worker you can add stupidity to their many other fine qualities. But I don’t think access to prostitutes would help them much in the long run. Might I remind you that Stephen Hawking had an affair - and I doubt you can find many men more disabled than he was. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/195 "2019-07-27T07:35:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Picking one bullet point at random: > > > [@](#): > > > > **More men are raped in the USA every year than women** > > \<…snip by Dibble\> > > More men are raped in the U.S. than woman, according to figures that include sexual abuse in prisons. > > In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time, according to the Department of Justice figures. > > That is compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison. > > \<…snip by Dibble…\> > > Peer-reviewed journals, my ass. Here’s a [pretty comprehensive takedown](https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/guest-post-more-men-are-raped-in-us-than-women/) of that one. tl;dr version: [ol] [li]Compares numbers for prison _sexual assault_ (which definition includes unwanted touch and attempted rape) with numbers for _actual rape_ outside[/li][li]Compares\* self-assessed\* prison numbers with numbers of rapes \*officially reported \*[/li][li]Uses prison numbers _that include women prisoners_ (who reportedly have higher rates of sexual assault in prison than men)[/li][/ol] 1 is the absolute killer for me. So yeah, if the other cites are as bullshit as that one, I would not be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/196 "2019-07-27T08:26:09Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh okay, we’re going there now. I’ll make my exit and leave you to your whining then. I mean, yes, but at the same time, dude. Incel defender. OF COURSE that’s where we were going. It’s pretty much also where we started, so at least the trek was uneventful. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/197 "2019-07-27T10:20:10Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > That’s a nice platitude but it doesn’t actually solve anything for the ones that still won’t make the cut after “working on themselves and not blaming others.” I mean, so an autistic man “works on himself”, still doesn’t get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man. > > Problem solved, huh? That’s still the best we can do? You have to start someplace. Focus on the ones who CAN “make the cut” after “working on themselves and not blaming others.” You’ll make a significant dent in the problem and there won’t be as many unhappy men. Yes, there will still be some who are unhappy. Do what you can now and work on the rest later. Why isn’t that acceptable to you?? There isn’t one solution that will work for everyone. But you aren’t even willing to entertain what would work for many. So it’s understandable that people think you have a motive with all this verbose bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/198 "2019-07-27T10:56:57Z")
Legalizing prostitution wouldn’t really change anything for incels (though I’m still in favor of it, and other proposals to give more rights and dignity to sex workers). Prostitution is still ubiquitous in America and most other places, and unless you’re a complete idiot, very easy to utilize without getting in trouble (in my understanding, not my personal experience ;)). If incels are consumed with anger and bitterness over a lack of sex with women, and nothing else, then it would be trivially easy, with a relatively low risk (or no risk if they take a vacation to Nevada), to hire a prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/199 "2019-07-27T12:27:13Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Why can’t we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill? ? It is healthy to get up off your ass and put in some work to find a partner. Every life-improvement project involves work. > [@](#): > > And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can’t give them the real thing? There are plenty of facsimiles. Porn, for instance. But facsimile isn’t really enough for you, is it? > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t that make more sense to try to accomplish? It makes sense for YOU to try to accomplish that. Either accomplish it, or accomplish therapy to deal with the disappointment. You are not entitled to have anyone else accomplish it, no matter how much sophistry and wheedling you deploy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/200 "2019-07-27T12:56:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The sources themselves are perfectly solid. > > Sources that were cited: > \*\* > University of Richmond > Pew Social Trends > National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) > SAGE Journal > Research Gate > National Bureau of Economic Research > Bureau of Justice Statistics > Research Direct > Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry > BBC > University of Chicago > Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences > Stanford University > \*\* > > If we weren’t discussing incel-dom, but rather, some other psychological topic such as adolescent education or drug addiction, most Dopers would accept such sources without a second thought. IOW, the reason the sources are being rejected is not because of the sources themselves, but because of the incels citing them. An argument requires more than sources to be valid; the information from said sources has to be used correctly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=11)