# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/283 "2019-07-27T23:29:00Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Okay. I’ll keep reading the studies on my own then. The ones I’ve read so far have been fine though. eg. The height one we already dissected here in this thread and it was fine. I also read the paternity one for example and it just copied the data table directly out. Only one here in the thread has been invalidated (the prison rape one). > > Just because something involves a lot of information doesn’t mean it’s automatically false, does it? That would be equally dumb as assuming it must be right because there is a lot of information. OK, so we’ve established you don’t have even a minimal basic understanding of how science works. That’s an increase in our knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/284 "2019-07-28T00:42:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Sweet Lazy Jesus. Two different boards in one day. > > “But I can’t think of any ideas, so I’m demanding that everyone else here come up with them for me and I’m getting quite irate that you all refuse to do it for me!” > > [Go use one of these as an anal dildo](https://i1.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/shark_tooth_weapon600px.jpg?resize=1200%2C670&strip=all&ssl=1) while you ponder your own answers to this mystery and stop getting angry at total strangers for not doing it for you. I provided ideas from within 2-3 hours of starting the thread. You are just a troll. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/285 "2019-07-28T00:44:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > OK, so we’ve established you don’t have even a minimal basic understanding of how science works. That’s an increase in our knowledge. If you understand science so much better than me you just want to insult me, why don’t you tell me why the studies are wrong like this one? [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21773929&postcount=269](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21773929&postcount=269) Just trolling as well? ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/286 "2019-07-28T00:48:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There are women keeping several men on a string also, so I think it might balance out a bit. > A sex bot who could have Siri loaded and assume various positions on command is a mechanical engineering problem, but nothing as fundamental as strong AI, so long before 50 years, no doubt. > But here’s the thing. I guy who this kind of bot would satisfy is demonstrating exactly the problem I was talking about. Clearly that person wants who fulfills his purely sexual - but not emotional - needs. I’d like to think that no incel would be truly satisfied with this kind of sexbot but perhaps I’m giving them too much credit. > I’m sure that there are men who are convinced that a higher priced prostitute feels for them. That’s a good talent for the woman to have. But your therapist is not your friend and your sex therapist is not your real lover. > I’m fine with men banging away at their sex toy or palm or liver or unaware sexbot. But if any of this is what satisfies them in terms of a connection to another person, they have serious emotional problems. Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don’t think the men have stopped trying overall. Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates. Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I’m about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it. Finally, I don’t think it’s necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to “work”. Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that’s enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/287 "2019-07-28T01:12:34Z")
Sorry bro, but the sex robots won’t want to fuck you either… What happens when they refuse? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/288 "2019-07-28T02:06:51Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > I don’t think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy But not all of that rise is **involuntary** celibacy, as [this article](https://ifstudies.org/blog/male-sexlessness-is-rising-but-not-for-the-reasons-incels-claim) discusses. > [@TheFuture](#): > > and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women Not much more, though: users of online dating are [about 52% male and about 48% female](https://www.eharmony.com/online-dating-statistics/). > [@TheFuture](#): > > Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Sounds like we’d get much better results addressing the **actual** problems underlying disconnection and unhappiness, to wit: - Stop the bullying of autistic children by other children. - Teach both boys and girls that women are autonomous individuals just as much as men are, and that nobody has any right to expect that any other individual owes them sex or love or friendship. - Teach both boys and girls that sexual behavior is a matter of individual choices by consenting adults, and we shouldn’t be harassing or denigrating people for making different choices from ours as long as they’re not hurting anyone. Slut-shaming, virgin-shaming, and all other picking on people for their sex lives is unhealthy and needs to stop. - Teach both boys and girls to value non-superficial attributes in a partner. If you think it’s embarrassing or humiliating to have a girlfriend who’s not beautiful or young, or a boyfriend who’s not rich or tall, that’s a problem with your attitude, not with your attractiveness level. Fat-shaming, poor-shaming, height-shaming, etc., is just as toxic and counterproductive as slut-shaming and virgin-shaming. - Teach both boys and girls to recognize and value the many joyful aspects of life that don’t involve sex and relationships. Feeling sorry for yourself or resentful of others because of your lack of a mate, when you could instead be enjoying life in all sorts of ways that don’t require a mate, is a problem with your attitude, not with society’s “failure” to provide you with a mate. That’s the sort of thing we should be doing (which btw has a lot of overlap with what you unreasonably denigrate as “SJW culture wars”), instead of just sitting around wishing for sexbots or inventing ways for society to “provide” unhappy men with better access to sex. Addressing the root causes of the unhappiness rather than the secondary phenomenon of the sexlessness will be better for everybody in the long run. Of course, even if we (very unrealistically) manage to fix all those problems, it will doubtless still be true that unattractive people, on average, will have more difficulty finding sex partners than attractive people. But at least they won’t be constantly stewing in resentment over it and taking it out on other people, and they’ll be better equipped to lead a fulfilling life in other respects. In particular, it will undercut the “misogyny terrorism” attitude prevalent in so much of inceldom. If a bunch of men believe that being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous will motivate society to try to encourage women to have sex with them in order to make them feel better, then of course those men are incentivized to go on being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous. But nobody should be encouraging women to have sex with men who are hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous. Society should be trying to fix the traditional toxic attitudes about sex that end up making people unhappy, sure. But if a person who’s unhappy about not having sex chooses to become hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous over it, he’s forfeited his claim on other people’s consideration. We should save our concern and compassion for the unhappy people who **aren’t** taking out their frustrations on others. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/289 "2019-07-28T04:22:29Z")
::mic drop:: Phenomenal post, **Kimstu**. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/290 "2019-07-28T04:40:59Z")
Thanks! Really cheeses me off how incel apologists are constantly telling us how imperative it is that society Take Action of some kind to relieve the intolerable sexlessness of all these sad (and Potentially Dangerous) young men, and seem not to give a rat’s ass about Taking Action to fix any of the societal pathologies that are helping make them sad in the first place. No, they want to believe that incels’ sadness is irrevocably ordained by evolution, but at the same time outrageously unjust and unendurable, so all society can or should do about it is to try to persuade people to have sex with them as a sacrifice for the common good. (And that’s when they’re not more or less openly advocating some form of **forcing** people to have sex with incels instead of just persuading them.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/291 "2019-07-28T04:45:22Z")
Are they really trying to exert leverage, or just lashing out in nihilistic frustration? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/292 "2019-07-28T04:50:22Z")
They’re pathetically whining about how hard their lives are and demanding that other people fix it for them instead of changing themselves or their perspectives. “No, no, no one will have sex with me so you people have to fix this for me!” Talk to the hand. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/293 "2019-07-28T05:06:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are they really trying to exert leverage, or just lashing out in nihilistic frustration? Are tantrumming toddlers really trying to get something they want, or just melting down in frustrated anger? I think the answer in both cases is “Some of each”. Sure, some of it is just childish entitlement and lack of self-discipline fueling a rage reaction, but they also genuinely feel that they are owed the thing they want and try to exert pressure to get it. The present OP, for example, doesn’t seem to be having a nihilistic frustrated lash-out: he honestly thinks that society should be doing something specifically to facilitate incels’ desire for sex, and he’s trying to persuade us to agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/294 "2019-07-28T05:15:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > TheFuture, have you 1) read through all the papers and articles that are cited in those claims? 2) Have you evaluated those papers and articles for whether the claims accurately summarize the findings? 3) Have you evaluated the basic worth of those studies to determine whether they adequately can be generalized and applied to the larger population which was not studied? 4) Have you searched out and read the additional work on the subject that may correct, debunk, obsolete, update, or expand upon those studies? Have you (TheFuture) understood that “a trend” does not equal “100% of cases”? No. Have you understood that “women” aren’t something you buy in a supermarket? Apparently, but you wish you could buy women-like tools that would behave exactly as you wish, including switching off. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/295 "2019-07-28T05:25:01Z")
There’s at least one traditional culture, the Basque, in which many of the traits which are now called “on the spectrum” aren’t just viewed as acceptable but desirable; a lot of our customs are based on expectations of things such as obsesiveness, nitpicking, low tolerance for social situations… but women and men have been on a more-equal footing than those in surrounding areas, too (when a whole culture views nitpicking or being obsessive about hobbies as fine things, they’re not done only by half that culture). One of the biggest reasons for “Basque endogamy” is simply that any self-respecting Basque woman (i.e., all of us) will refuse to have sex with, much less marry, a guy who expects her to be his servant. Incels want sex serfs, not partners. They want women who are top-shelf in looks, bottom-self in self-respect, and who in the morning prepare breakfast to perfection and silently, already made up and wearing stiletto heels. No worky. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/296 "2019-07-28T05:38:20Z")
Are the incels right about everything or not, because I got some math I don’t want to do and I was hoping to pass it off. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/297 "2019-07-28T05:38:48Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don’t think the men have stopped trying overall. > > Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates. > > Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I’m about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it. > > Finally, I don’t think it’s necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to “work”. Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that’s enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life. Having successfully met someone via online dating I would say that the incels are somewhat correct. If you aren’t a doctor hunk, you’re going to have a pretty steep hill to climb. But, I think, there’s also a strong position for guys who seem fun to hang out with - and, I suspect, most incels haven’t noticed that. But more importantly is the question of “why”? Ugly and serious guys can successful meet people in real life. The incel view breaks down if you’re willing to go to a bar and engage in small chat, and able to come across as “not a creep”. That’s the issue is that, on the Internet, all guys are creeps. You immediately have a +10 creep factor hanging around your neck like an albatross and, simply, if you don’t have the other raw stats to appeal to a woman then you’re done. This isn’t a matter of women being shallow or whatever else, it’s that they don’t want to get raped or assaulted. If they meet you in person, in a crowded place, and you’re able to successfully seem like a reasonable human being who understands how to behave like a human being, you’re immediately at -10 creep factor. It’s no longer the criteria being measured. But [online](https://images.app.goo.gl/MqYL7gbrm2R4MQT26), women have a fairly justified predisposition to expect that dudes be crazy. I’ll even go ahead and throw myself under the bus and admit that, unknowingly and unintentionally, I’ve been an online creep. It takes experience and practice hanging out with other human beings in real life to figure out how to behave appropriately and the Internet teaches you a different set of rules of behavior from what works in person. Part of that is accepting that you’re an idiot and that probably you’re doing things wrong without being aware of it. And the other part is abandoning the internet and finding hobbies that women do and trying to be clear up front and in advance, should you befriend any of them, that you’re a moron who never learned to human, and to ask them to slap you if you do something stupid and set you straight. If you want to meet someone, first make sure that you mean that in the sense that you want to have a wholesome, genuine, open, honest, and equal relationship and secondly find and embrace humility. Accept that you’re going to look like an idiot and be horribly embarrassed in some situations, but so it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/298 "2019-07-28T06:36:13Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Well I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don’t think the men have stopped trying overall. > > Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates. > > Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I’m about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it. > > Finally, I don’t think it’s necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to “work”. Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that’s enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life. I agree with your last paragraph. There is no relationship that is 100% fulfilling, and I’ve been happily married for 41 years. I wouldn’t put a number on it, but way above 50%. But even 50% is a lot better than nothing. Do you agree that a solution to the incel “problem” would be for them to approach women differently? I went to college in the real hotbed of celibacy in Cambridge MA. I knew plenty of guys who had zero dates in 4 years. None of them blamed women for this, none of them were misogynist. They pretty much all eventually got married. Now some of them might have thought it, but the rest of us wouldn’t respond too well to this attitude. This was long before the Internet and the echo chamber anyone can find to magnify their worst characteristics. I only knew one volcel - he became a priest - but no one would probably have called themselves incels which implies someone is forcing that status on you. So, do you agree or disagree that incels would be much better off if they stopped thinking about paying or building someone to have an emotional relationship with them, and stopped thinking that women are somehow obligate to have an emotional relationship with them, and get out there and do the work involved in having an emotional relationship, the way the rest of us do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/299 "2019-07-28T06:52:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The present OP, for example, doesn’t seem to be having a nihilistic frustrated lash-out: he honestly thinks that society should be doing something specifically to facilitate incels’ desire for sex, and he’s trying to persuade us to agree with him. But even he doesn’t think the incels’ problem is lack of sex, since he rejects prostitution as an answer. The sex therapist he does see as an answer is a simulacrom of a real relationship, with the therapist being paid to act as if she was emotionally invested in the person. Plus sex. I got that the benefit he saw in this was the fake relationship, not that the therapist might push the incel into real relationships. Which a non-sex therapist could do also. Probably better. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/300 "2019-07-28T13:10:03Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Since when is Straight Dope’s ideology anything but the pursuit of truth? My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/301 "2019-07-28T13:19:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The sex therapist he does see as an answer is a simulacrom of a real relationship, with the therapist being paid to act as if she was emotionally invested in the person. Plus sex. What does he think an expensive whore does, jump on the john’s cock? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/302 "2019-07-28T13:32:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month… Ain’t that suspicious? :dubious: An option not suggested is that the incels give bisexuality a try. It doubles the dating pool (of people to shut them down). “Oh, but I’m not into guys,” they might say, but they indulge in too many online circle jerks to convince me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=16)