# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/303 "2019-07-28T13:40:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month… Two days ago, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/304 "2019-07-28T14:33:37Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Okay. Let’s look at one together. Here’s one: > > [Relationship Involvement Among Young Adults: Are Asian American Men an Exceptional Case? - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4631383/) > > Here are the quotes they quoted: > \* > Quotes: > > ``` > Asian women were half as likely as Asian men to be unpartnered (i.e., 18% versus 35%). > Asian men, but not black or Hispanic men, exhibit significantly lower odds of involvement than white men. Specifically, they have roughly half the odds of current involvement as white men. > We found no evidence that socioeconomic resources or physical characteristics were driving the lower levels of involvement among Asian men. Instead, our findings are consistent with the notion that Asian American men are at the bottom of the racial hierarchy when it comes to the different-sex dating market. > If “Asian cultural values” account for differences in romantic partnership formation, we would have found similar patterns for Asian women as Asian men. In fact, the opposite was true. > A racial hierarchy explanation suggests that Asian American men will be less likely than Asian American women to be partnered, as Asian American men face gendered cultural stereotypes barring them from entry into romantic partnerships. > > ``` > > - > > Where is the bullshit? Seriously? If this is all wrong, I will sleep better at night. So how is it wrong? From the very same study you quoted above: > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, our results do suggest that a racial hierarchy in romantic partner preferences may hinder Asian men from entering into romantic partnerships during young adulthood. \*\* Published U.S. Census statistics on marriage suggest that Asian American men eventually marry; among Asian American men ages 40 to 50 years, just 12% are reported as never married compared with 16% of white men.\*\* However, these figures include Asian men who dated and married outside of the US – hence, they would not have suffered under the same racial hierarchy as they might have had they dated in the US. We do not know whether this younger cohort of Asian American men will eventually marry at similarly high rates or whether the patterns of exclusion found in the dating market here will continue to the marriage market. Data from the US Census also includes individuals that married outside of the US, so even if Asian American men are marginalized in the US dating market, that would not affect the odds of marriage among Asians outside of the US. It is also possible that Asian American men are disadvantaged in the dating market, but eventually marry due to their higher SES attainment. Sweet dreams. Oh, and just before you nod off…: > [@](#): > > …In addition, men of all different racial groups are most likely to exclude black women than any other women. …but don’t let that keep you up all night with worry. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/305 "2019-07-28T15:20:35Z")
I’m sure it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/306 "2019-07-28T16:27:31Z")
I hope their researching is better than their Englishing. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/307 "2019-07-28T17:18:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m sure it won’t. No, it won’t. It was the same with the studies from the site that I looked at, too. The “incels” pathologically reason toward their own foregone conclusion. They think that if they can just throw a hodgepodge of disparate studies at the wall—without regard to any Bayesian process—that they can claim, “Science says incels are right!” Then people untrained in research come along and mindlessly echo them: “Yep! Science proves it!” This thread is waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/308 "2019-07-28T17:23:47Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Ain’t that suspicious? :dubious: > > An option not suggested is that the incels give bisexuality a try. It doubles the dating pool (of people to shut them down). “Oh, but I’m not into guys,” they might say, but they indulge in too many online circle jerks to convince me. Coincidentally, the woman who coined the term “incel” eventually realized that she’s gay. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/309 "2019-07-28T17:34:56Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Coincidentally, the woman who coined the term “incel” eventually realized that she’s gay. So one might say, she found her “happy ending”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/310 "2019-07-28T18:05:51Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No, it won’t. It was the same with the studies from the site that I looked at, too. > > The “incels” pathologically reason toward their own foregone conclusion. They think that if they can just throw a hodgepodge of disparate studies at the wall—without regard to any Bayesian process—that they can claim, “Science says incels are right!” > > Then people untrained in research come along and mindlessly echo them: “Yep! Science proves it!” > > This thread is waste of time. Yep, I have seen creationists, moon landing hoaxers, scientific racists, climate change deniers, [del]bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists [/del] and other pseudo scientists dump the Bayesian process, and then you notice lukewarmers to those ideas coming to tell others: Won’t somebody please think of the [gilded](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/gilded)!\* 🙂 \*[sub] 2. Having a pleasing or showy appearance that conceals something of little worth.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/311 "2019-07-28T19:47:59Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [A documentary which happened to feature only three incels.](https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/45251/1/incel-culture-forums-bbc-three-documentary) Here’s the doc episode: [Inside The Secret World of Incels](https://documentaryheaven.com/inside-secret-world-of-incels/) I’m sorry, at 48, I can not stop laughing at the dumb kid in Isla Vista in his videos. Like, “Kid, you won’t be a virgin anymore within 24 hours of your arrest.” 😃 I mean, just looking at him-- NO! You’re not getting laid by hot girls! Look at you! How do short, ugly girls feel? Are they getting laid by the Brad Pitt type? My first DL was given to me at 17. (That was the age then.) I looked 12. I was even stopped THREE TIMES by cops thinking I wasn’t old enough to drive. At 22 (ER’s age), I looked about 15. Wasn’t allowed in certain bars without backup ID. The chances I had with “hot blonde girls” was nil. Then I started playing heavy metal and grew my hair long. Experimentation with girls began! Sometimes you just gotta wait for the girl. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/312 "2019-07-28T21:42:45Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Then I started playing heavy metal and grew my hair long. Experimentation with girls began! Before the internet and its echo chambers of inceldom existed, guys intuitively realized this, which is why there are so many goddamn rock bands in this world. Now the frustrated guy picks up a gun instead of a guitar. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/313 "2019-07-28T22:14:33Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Before the internet and its echo chambers of inceldom existed, guys intuitively realized this, which is why there are so many goddamn rock bands in this world. Now the frustrated guy picks up a gun instead of a guitar. That and this weird sense of entitlement. Like, “I’m rich. I got a nice car. Why aren’t hot girls clawing at me?” ER’s big thing was he was 22 and still a virgin. OMG!!! Time to get back at society for putting me in this woe-is-me mode! You’re short and ugly! Get over it! And the doc I posted to was enlightening. Mr. Mask (don’t know his name) was absolutely the dumbest. He films himself harassing girls as they run away from him. He posts the shit online. He even goes to dating sites and gets dates only so he can diss them when he meets them. “Catfishing” they call it. Rep sped really fast in my day, now even faster. Do these people have any idea what reputation means? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/314 "2019-07-29T04:09:41Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > You’re short and ugly! Get over it! I don’t at all mean this to excuse red/black pill toxicity, but being “short and ugly” actually sounds like it would be pretty hard to “get over”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/315 "2019-07-29T04:27:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I don’t at all mean this to excuse red/black pill toxicity, but being “short and ugly” actually sounds like it would be pretty hard to “get over”. Bear in mind, though, that society routinely expects **women** to just “get over” being ugly, or “too tall”, or flat-chested, or any one of a million other characteristics that men tend to consider less sexually desirable in women. That is, society expects women to privately feel bad about looking undesirable, and to try to change themselves to look more desirable, but definitely not to cause trouble for other people over it. If we had multiple **female** mass murderers writing manifestos about how the iron fist of evolutionary selection had ruined their lives by smiting them with the curse of ugliness and that their resulting lack of sexual and emotional validation was plunging them into such a state of suicidal despair that they were going to kill as many people as possible in a grand gesture of vengeful anguish, there would not be people anxiously inquiring on the internet about what society could do to alleviate their pain. It’s taken for granted that women are supposed to handle their own attractiveness/insecurity issues without letting themselves become raging toxic shitweasels. So, y’know, the question of whether it’s a big ask to expect people to just “get over” their own physical shortcomings kind of depends on your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/316 "2019-07-29T04:39:54Z")
That was quite the strawman. If anything, I think most people understand that it is even tougher to be a woman who is not conventionally attractive. Relatedly, that it can be extremely painful to be a woman who was beautiful in the full flower of her youth but who is past her prime (regardless, sadly, of how much grace and wisdom she may possess). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/317 "2019-07-29T04:53:57Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Before the internet and its echo chambers of inceldom existed, guys intuitively realized this, which is why there are so many goddamn rock bands in this world. Now the frustrated guy picks up a gun instead of a guitar. I guess \*that \*machine kills fascists too, but… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/318 "2019-07-29T05:04:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If anything, I think most people understand that it is even tougher to be a woman who is not conventionally attractive. Sure, but they still expect women to be able to get over it. In fact, as you note, society takes it for granted that almost **all** women will successfully accept going through a massive decline in perceived desirability, well before and to a greater extent than men do, while still being functional and constructive members of society. Nobody is bustling around the internet proposing that society needs to take significant action to improve the sexual and romantic satisfaction of ugly and/or elderly women who are otherwise getting “left out”. So from a woman’s perspective, the whiny self-absorption of resentful incels seems even less deserving of sympathy. They are having prolonged melodramatic egotistical meltdowns about a life tragedy that women are routinely expected to deal with while still getting on with life as a functioning human being. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/319 "2019-07-29T06:49:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but they still expect women to be able to get over it. In fact, as you note, society takes it for granted that almost **all** women will successfully accept going through a massive decline in perceived desirability, well before and to a greater extent than men do, while still being functional and constructive members of society. > > Nobody is bustling around the internet proposing that society needs to take significant action to improve the sexual and romantic satisfaction of ugly and/or elderly women who are otherwise getting “left out”. So from a woman’s perspective, the whiny self-absorption of resentful incels seems even less deserving of sympathy. They are having prolonged melodramatic egotistical meltdowns about a life tragedy that women are routinely expected to deal with while still getting on with life as a functioning human being. I think society as a whole thinks that incels should just get over it also. Even worse, the stereotypes of gender roles say that unattractive women may be unhappy but are not to blame, while incel types really should do something about their plight, and not just complain. Incels seem to think that society should dooooo something about their situation, and are mad that most of society says tough shit. There is a [Flanders & Swann song](https://genius.com/Flanders-and-swann-the-warthog-lyrics) that is somewhat pertinent to this discussion, though the sexes of the protagonists should be swapped to make it really fit. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/320 "2019-07-29T07:31:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but they still expect women to be able to get over it. In fact, as you note, society takes it for granted that almost **all** women will successfully accept going through a massive decline in perceived desirability, well before and to a greater extent than men do, while still being functional and constructive members of society. > > Nobody is bustling around the internet proposing that society needs to take significant action to improve the sexual and romantic satisfaction of ugly and/or elderly women who are otherwise getting “left out”. So from a woman’s perspective, the whiny self-absorption of resentful incels seems even less deserving of sympathy. They are having prolonged melodramatic egotistical meltdowns about a life tragedy that women are routinely expected to deal with while still getting on with life as a functioning human being. That’s all true, but I specifically stated in my post that I was not defending incels. Only objecting to blithely saying “short and ugly? Get over it”, as though that were a pretty minor complaint and should be easy to get over. How about this instead: “Short and ugly? That really does suck, I get it, but it doesn’t give you an excuse to lash out at the rest of society.” ETA: When I see the clothes, makeup, and plastic surgery that has become more and more common for women “of a certain age” these days, I’m not sure the social expectation is still that they “successfully accept” the changes age brings. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/321 "2019-07-29T07:55:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think society as a whole thinks that incels should just get over it also. I don’t disagree: what I was arguing with was incel self-pity itself. > [@Voyager](#): > > Even worse, the stereotypes of gender roles say that unattractive women may be unhappy but are not to blame Not sure I believe that, given the contemptuous slurs that have been constantly applied to unattractive and/or aged women: “dog”, “pig”, “crone”, “crow”, “hag”, “minger”, etc. And that’s without counting all the vast array of epithets specifically targeted at fat women, who generally **are** considered responsible for their looks. > [@Voyager](#): > > There is a [Flanders & Swann song](https://genius.com/Flanders-and-swann-the-warthog-lyrics) that is somewhat pertinent to this discussion, though the sexes of the protagonists should be swapped to make it really fit. I love F&S but don’t really see how “The Warthog” is pertinent here, or would be even if gender-swapped. Its premise is that a young female who’s actually quite attractive by conventional standards, including a figure like Marilyn Monroe’s, beautiful grooming, etc., is rejected by potential partners simply because she happens to be a warthog. And her luck changes only when she meets a male who doesn’t mind her being a warthog because he’s one too, although he **dislikes** her conventionally pretty appearance. (By modern standards, of course, the female warthog’s situation looks kinda grim all through: either be sneeringly rejected because of your basic identity by guys who nonetheless acknowledge that your appearance is quite attractive, or get rudely negged about your appearance by a guy who deigns to approve of your basic identity. :rolleyes: ) But how’s that apply to incels, even if you gender-swap? They seem to think of themselves as irretrievably ugly, not superficially attractive but doomed by their warthog nature. And they also don’t seem to think that finding an opposite-sex warthog who likes them would be a happy ending; they’d just go on complaining about how they’re denied a shot at the beautiful young jaguar. So the metaphor has kind of eluded me here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/322 "2019-07-29T07:59:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > How about this instead: “Short and ugly? That really does suck, I get it, but it doesn’t give you an excuse to lash out at the rest of society.” Fair enough, that would be an improvement. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: When I see the clothes, makeup, and plastic surgery that has become more and more common for women “of a certain age” these days, I’m not sure the social expectation is still that they “successfully accept” the changes age brings. Well, my point isn’t that women are expected not to resist aging at all (and, of course, resisting aging via dyes and wigs and powders and paints etc. has been around for millennia), but rather that they’re expected to successfully deal with it without turning into a miserable sociopath. Which, tbh, does not seem too much to ask, incels to the contrary notwithstanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=17)