# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/383 "2019-08-02T02:56:28Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > I also wouldn’t have guessed that 62% of women have rape fantasies: I’m curious what this is supposed to say about women or incels. Or what incels are supposed to be “right” about. Is it some “women want to be raped” nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/384 "2019-08-02T03:14:57Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Link to the studies, NOT to incels wiki. For example, if you [look at the actual study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605) spun on the incels wiki as “62% of women have rape fantasies”, what it says is that among 355 female undergraduates, 62% had **ever** had a rape fantasy, with the median frequency of such fantasies among that 62% being 4 times per year. So it’s fair to say that about two-thirds of women never or almost never fantasize about being raped. [Other research indicates](https://www.businessinsider.com/which-sexual-fantasies-are-normal-2014-10) that men and women are about equal in their tendency to fantasize about being forced to have sex: 28.9% of women versus 30.7% of men. Fantasies about forcing someone else to have sex, on the other hand, are reported by 10.8% of women and 22.0% of men. In short, a tendency to fantasize about raping or being raped is not uncommon (though not a majority characteristic) among men and women alike, and they have little or nothing to do with what people seek in their real-life sexual experiences. But of course that mundane conclusion is not what the people on incels wiki want to hear, since they tend to be heavily invested in misogynistic notions of women being subservient sluts who just want dominant men to abuse them. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/385 "2019-08-02T03:35:48Z")
Plenty of people like to read murder mysteries who have no desire at all to be exposed to an actual murder, whether as the murderer, the victim, the detective, or even the incidental neighbor halfway down the block. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/386 "2019-08-02T03:42:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For example, if you [look at the actual study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605) spun on the incels wiki as “62% of women have rape fantasies”, what it says is that among 355 female undergraduates, 62% had **ever** had a rape fantasy, with the median frequency of such fantasies among that 62% being 4 times per year. So it’s fair to say that about two-thirds of women never or almost never fantasize about being raped. > > [Other research indicates](https://www.businessinsider.com/which-sexual-fantasies-are-normal-2014-10) that men and women are about equal in their tendency to fantasize about being forced to have sex: 28.9% of women versus 30.7% of men. Fantasies about forcing someone else to have sex, on the other hand, are reported by 10.8% of women and 22.0% of men. > > In short, a tendency to fantasize about raping or being raped is not uncommon (though not a majority characteristic) among men and women alike, and they have little or nothing to do with what people seek in their real-life sexual experiences. But of course that mundane conclusion is not what the people on incels wiki want to hear, since they tend to be heavily invested in misogynistic notions of women being subservient sluts who just want dominant men to abuse them. Ah. See, that’s a key thing that the incel wiki misrepresented. Have had =/= have. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/387 "2019-08-02T04:12:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Not to keep digging over this hijack, but STEADY ON, OLD CHAP. When the other animals say _“we know her ‘these and those’ are like Marilyn Monroe’s”_ (or _“like Brigitte Bardot’s”_ in the original version of the song), they are **NOT** referring to “elocution studies”: > > You think Monroe or Bardot is being referenced here for her elegant **elocution**? Believe me, that’s not the reason those actresses (talented though they were in very many respects) became household words. 😃 > > No, the animals are acknowledging that the warthog’s appearance **is** at least somewhat conventionally attractive, including a bangin’ figure like a movie star’s, but she “somehow” isn’t putting it over because she’s a warthog **underneath** it all. We are just going to have agree to disagree. Other than the “these and those”, which is euphemistically amibgous everything else is something that the poor dear warthog did to herself (and could be easily undone) rather than having been inflicted upon her by nature. I’m also influenced by the [cover of the record](https://www.ebay.com/itm/292742927392)I grew up with which features a gussied up but distinctly unsvelte she hog. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/388 "2019-08-02T04:15:03Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Okay. Take for example the race data from this study: > > [Scientific Blackpill - Incel Wiki](https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill#Women_are_more_racist_in_online_dating.2C_and_92-95.25_with_a_.22preference.22_exclude_any_ethnic_men) > > Why do you believe this study showed that women judge men by a racial hierarchy of: > > White \> Latino \> Black \> Asian \> Middle Eastern \> Indian > > eg. > > - Do you believe this is cultural or based on physical traits? > - Do you believe it is malleable? > - Do you believe it constitutes racism? > > Also why do you believe women have stricter racial criteria than men and does this constitute greater racism (ie. eliminating an entire group of men based on race would be racism in any other context)? > > Please explain your reasoning for each question. I am curious about these sorts of implied questions. If YOU don’t want to discuss these types of things, no one is making you post. > > If you don’t want to talk about race, what about height? > > ie. Do you think it is significant short men have twice the suicide rate as tall men? Why do you think that is? Do you think anything should be or could be done about it? You seem to be missing the point with incels. Even if your hierarchy is correct (and it is correct on the average, not for each woman) a person in the second place group is not out of the running. White Southern men around 1960 would no doubt in a poll prefer white women to black women. The absurdity of this as a general rule was demonstrated by [Professor Lenny Bruce.](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/84456-you-are-a-white-the-imperial-wizard-now-if-you) > [@](#): > > “You are a white. The Imperial Wizard. Now, if you don’t think this is logic you can burn me on the fiery cross. This is the logic: You have the choice of spending fifteen years married to a woman, a black woman or a white woman. Fifteen years kissing and hugging and sleeping real close on hot nights. With a black, black woman or a white, white woman. The white woman is Kate Smith. And the black woman is Lena Horne. So you’re not concerned with black or white anymore, are you? You are concerned with how cute or how pretty. Then let’s really get basic and persecute ugly people!” I know this is men choosing women, but it is just as applicable as women choosing men. Obviously you can create a hierarchy of what men consider attractive in women, but given the mix of characteristics men trade off one for many others (like brains.) Incels don’t seem to have figured out that they need to do this tradeoff. I’m sure that most men would prefer a woman who is gorgeous, brilliant, great at love, amusing, and a great mother and everything else - but my wife is already taken. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/389 "2019-08-02T04:22:09Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > We are just going to have agree to disagree. […] I’m also influenced by the [cover of the record](https://www.ebay.com/itm/292742927392)I grew up with which features a gussied up but distinctly unsvelte she hog. Fair enough, but I refer you to the [artwork for the song’s original sheet music publication](http://www.donaldswann.co.uk/pubfands.html) (about halfway down the page), in which the warthog maiden is depicted as decidedly more oomphalicious. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/390 "2019-08-02T05:24:46Z")
TheFuture, I guaranfuckingtee you that if someone posted citations to 130 studies pointing to conclusions people here _wanted_ to believe, they would not be throwing up all these roadblocks and obfuscations and slow walking everything to death. The confirmation bias here is thick as molasses. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/391 "2019-08-02T05:41:07Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m curious what this is supposed to say about women or incels. Or what incels are supposed to be “right” about. Is it some “women want to be raped” nonsense? No kidding! Like, is this a proposed solution to the problem of incels? They’d be okay if only they could rape more women and the women would be okay because they secretly desire that? That’s all kinds of fucked up. I have bad news for incels. Your brain is wired to squirt dopamine at you so that you will _chase_ a reward. However, your brain does not squirt any dopamine at you for actually _achieving_ said reward. So people who obsess about sex or romantic relationships or what have you are up for some real disappointment if they ever actually manage to fulfill their fantasies. Learn to control how your dopamine affects you and you can do anything. Let it control you and you’ll always be chasing a reward that is forever out of your reach. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/392 "2019-08-02T07:30:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > TheFuture, I guaranfuckingtee you that if someone posted citations to 130 studies pointing to conclusions people here _wanted_ to believe, they would not be throwing up all these roadblocks and obfuscations and slow walking everything to death. The confirmation bias here is thick as molasses. :rolleyes: Well, then it should had been easy to find faults in the citations of groups like Skeptical Science when they do use peer review to point at more than 180 studies that show how dumb would be to ignore climate change. > **[Arguments from Global Warming Skeptics and what the science really says](https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php)** > > Examines the science and arguments of global warming skepticism. Common objections like 'global warming is caused by the sun', 'temperature has changed naturally in the past' or 'other planets are warming too' are examined to see what the science... Thing is that by experience, many of the pseudoscience obfuscators would then ignore that because, **they are relevant citations for the matter at hand** , and not from a group that does just pretends that it does. And BTW I do not point at the wall of cites usually because in actual discussions I do look at the cites and concentrate on specifics or cite the actual research. Again, the conclusion for the first study the incel wiki pointed at is not much applicable to what they claim. It **could** be relevant “to only a subset of women” that do not follow good advice regarding relationships. Very little to do about incels. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/393 "2019-08-02T07:38:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > TheFuture, I guaranfuckingtee you that if someone posted citations to 130 studies pointing to conclusions people here _wanted_ to believe, they would not be throwing up all these roadblocks and obfuscations and slow walking everything to death. Maybe if **TheFuture** actually addressed the first few takedowns of one of their cites ([like this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21773044&postcount=195)), rather than just Galloping on… but yeah, confirmation bias, sure, pal. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/394 "2019-08-02T09:26:23Z")
**Slacker** ’s an incel? Or incel-curious? Or Red Pill or whatever? What a shock. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/395 "2019-08-02T10:21:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Plenty of people like to read murder mysteries who have no desire at all to be exposed to an actual murder, whether as the murderer, the victim, the detective, or even the incidental neighbor halfway down the block. Likewise, I enjoy funny cat videos. I do not want a cat. I don’t even particularly like cats. But I like the videos. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/396 "2019-08-02T10:54:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Slacker** ’s an incel? Or incel-curious? Or Red Pill or whatever? What a shock. Based on what he’s said, naah, he’s married with kids or something. But he is generically asshole-sympathetic, and I think it comes from that. Or his usual racist-inspired Freeze Peach shit, take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/397 "2019-08-02T11:48:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > TheFuture, I guaranfuckingtee you that if someone posted citations to 130 studies pointing to conclusions people here _wanted_ to believe, they would not be throwing up all these roadblocks and obfuscations and slow walking everything to death. The confirmation bias here is thick as molasses. :rolleyes: Well, _someone_ here is thick as molasses. We know that. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/398 "2019-08-02T11:59:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Broads, man. [Hey now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqeatUvRu68). > [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > As far as I can tell, the entire thread boils down to: society must provide women to men, so that men can fuck them. I remember seeing an [older documentary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Needs_Women) on that very subject. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I’d suggest they (and incels alike) join our vast network of ongoing support groups. It’s called “Everyone” and we meet at the bar. Personally, I want a doggo. Sure, but who doesn’t want a nice doggo? > [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > I reject that Wiki page because it doesn’t even mention what a girl wants the most: shopping. I have it on good Charlotte authority that girls don’t like boys; girls like cars and money. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/399 "2019-08-02T12:10:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I have it on good Charlotte authority that girls don’t like boys; girls like cars and money. \*Girls who want boys who like boys to be girls who do boys like they’re girls who do girls like they’re boys… \* It’s all such a [blur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDswiT87oo8). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/400 "2019-08-02T12:45:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > \*Girls who want boys who like boys to be girls who do boys like they’re girls who do girls like they’re boys… > \* > It’s all such a [blur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDswiT87oo8). It’s ok. A thousand years from now there’ll be no guys and no girls. Just wankers. Sounds great to me. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/401 "2019-08-02T13:00:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > \*Girls who want boys who like boys to be girls who do boys like they’re girls who do girls like they’re boys… > \* > It’s all such a [blur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDswiT87oo8). Yes, yes, but do you know [what boys want](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsneH0mOq-0)? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/402 "2019-08-02T13:35:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Slacker** ’s an incel? Or incel-curious? Or Red Pill or whatever? What a shock. :rolleyes: I have been married, to two different women (consecutively, with a gap in between) for 15 out of the past 20 years. Two kids from each marriage, four total. And: > [@Is MRA/pick-up artist/incel "biological psychology" necessarily........wrong?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mra-pick-up-artist-incel-biological-psychology-necessarily-wrong/837132/98): > > Incels and especially the red pill crowd do not deserve to be defended. They are truly horrible people. But evolutionary psychology does needs to be defended. That’s not to say that every finding ever produced in that field is airtight, any more than this is the case in the rest of psychology. But there is a lot of validity to that line of inquiry even if hardcore feminists and social scientists abhor the implications. **“Incels and especially the red pill crowd do not deserve to be defended. They are truly horrible people.”** Got it? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=21)