# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/524 "2019-08-07T00:58:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And you’re playing a version of the Gish Gallop. All I’ve been doing on this issue is to challenge your resolutely unsupported repeated claims that unidentified “feminists” are **equally** wrong about evolutionary science as incels and redpillers. That discussion, which in no way resembles a Gish Gallop on my part, has gone like this: > [@SlackerInc in post 193](#): > > While incels and the MRA crowd are definitely full of shit, the evidence would tend to lead an objective observer to the conclusion that social scientists, ardent feminists, and the politically correct Twitterati are also just as full of feces. > [@SlackerInc in post 443](#): > > Incels and red pillers are not operating from a reasonable scientific perspective. […] But their ideological opposites, ardent feminists coming from a “woke” social science perspective, are equally far off from the truth in the other direction […] > [@Kimstu in post 450](#): > > Nobody’s claiming that “ardent feminists” (such as who, exactly?) can’t be wrong in some of their opinions. But to claim that they are equally “far off from the truth” as the misogynistic absurdities of incels and redpillers is ridiculous. > [@Kimstu in post 454](#): > > And I repeat, it is ridiculous to make even the more limited claim that feminist viewpoints on social science are “equally far off from the truth” as incel/redpill ones. […] > > If you’re going to claim that feminist(s) are saying anything about human biology or sociology anywhere near as anti-scientific as this kind of incel/redpill stupidity, you’re going to need to bring some cites, not just take refuge in mealymouthed bothsidesism. > [@SlackerInc in post 455](#): > > Whereas the social science oriented feminists I’m talking about flatly refuse to consider any science that cashes out as “gender essentialism” in their eyes. > [@Kimstu in post 457](#): > > Again, where are your cites that any so-called “social science oriented feminists” are actually doing what you claim they are? > [@SlackerInc in post 477](#): > > Here is the kind of ev-psych research I find fascinating, but which many feminists (somewhat understandably) cannot abide and simply will not accept: > [@Kimstu in post 516](#): > > You still haven’t provided any cite for any of the “many feminists” who allegedly “cannot abide and simply will not accept” a particular research finding about human evolutionary development. > [@SlackerInc in post 517](#): > > To argue that sociologist feminists would be open to this kind of research is either disingenuous or shows you don’t know feminist sociologists. > [@Kimstu in post 520](#): > > Those accusations are also not actual cites for any of the alleged “many feminists” who allegedly “cannot abide and simply will not accept” a particular research finding about human evolutionary development. In case you’ve forgotten, it’s actual cites to that effect that you were asked for. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not gonna bite. That’s **Slacker** -speak for “Don’t have a cite and don’t want to admit it”. **SlackerInc** , what seems to be underlying your ill-informed obstinate strawmanning is your naive conflation of solid scientific findings on human evolution with the ubiquitous popular mishmash of speculation and extrapolation about various research results that are claimed to “suggest” certain inferences about human behavior. A lot of people not unreasonably have a lot of skepticism about the latter. You are trying to spin that into claims that certain vaguely identified groups of people “flatly refuse to consider” or “cannot abide and simply will not accept” the former. And you have provided jack-shit in the way of actual evidence for your stubbornly reiterated claims. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/525 "2019-08-07T01:12:47Z")
It’s my experience over many years of encounters with such people. So no cite, but it’s also pretty much common fucking sense if you have ever spent any time around that crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/526 "2019-08-07T01:30:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s my experience over many years of encounters with such people. This might be slightly more persuasive (though not much, owing to its continued total absence of cites) if there were any evidence that you yourself can successfully distinguish between solid scientific findings on human evolution and the ubiquitous popular mishmash of speculation and extrapolation about various research results that are claimed to “suggest” certain inferences about human behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/527 "2019-08-07T04:22:11Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > (eg. Asian ladyboys make some of the most convincing trannies) [Moderating] The word “trannie” is considered a slur and is not allowed on these boards. Do not use it again. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/528 "2019-08-07T11:31:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s my experience over many years of encounters with such people. So no cite, but it’s also pretty much common fucking sense if you have ever spent any time around that crowd. > [@Kimstu](#): > > This might be slightly more persuasive (though not much, owing to its continued total absence of cites) if there were any evidence that you yourself can successfully distinguish between solid scientific findings on human evolution and the ubiquitous popular mishmash of speculation and extrapolation about various research results that are claimed to “suggest” certain inferences about human behavior. And without cites, how do we know he’s not simply experiencing confirmation bias? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/529 "2019-08-07T11:38:18Z")
He doesn’t actually have any experience interacting with “real feminists.” He has no idea what or how they think or what they would or would not “accept.” Everything is a mad fantasy in his own mind. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/530 "2019-08-07T11:54:36Z")
Assuming who is and who is not a “real feminist” would be part of the confirmation bias. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/531 "2019-08-07T14:41:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > He doesn’t actually have any experience interacting with “real feminists.” He has no idea what or how they think or what they would or would not “accept.” Everything is a mad fantasy in his own mind. You are the one engaging in mad fantasy. You can search through my Twitter history and find me arguing with feminists. A few of them, including at least a couple semifamous ones, have me blocked because they can’t handle polite but probing pushback (what they would call “walrusing” :rolleyes:). It reminded me of the women’s studies course I took in college in 1993—I came into the class with no axe to grind, but found myself horrified by some of the content, and my arguments in class were, shall we say, not appreciated by the professor or most of my coursemates. And as I keep explaining, I have been surrounded by this stuff (albeit a slightly less radical version than in that class) since before I can remember. My mother, the sociology professor, required her students to use “they” in place of “he/she” at least a quarter century ago, way before it was on the mainstream radar screen. She kept her own “maiden name” (not hyphenated) way back in the ‘70s, and gave my sister and me hyphenated names (reversed with each other so neither of us would give either parent precedence). She regularly went to consciousness-raising groups when I was a kid. I have read extensively in the genre of feminist science fiction, particularly Ursula K LeGuin, whose novels _The Dispossessed_ and _The Left Hand of Darkness_ were required texts in my late father‘s anthropology classes. I recently watched a documentary on her career on PBS. My father was also a big fan of the book _Walden Two_, which fully embraces this idea (the one that Pinker demolished) that it’s all about the nurture. I loved my late father and I love my mother, but that does not erase my intellectual independence. I think they got this stuff very wrong. (And as my own older children seem in their teenage years to have moved back in their grandparents’ direction, maybe my grandchildren will see things more my way, or maybe I will be a blip in the family lineage.) And again, my wife was in a sociology Ph.D. program when I met her, doing research on street harassment, but I was able to convince her it was a bad idea—so she took a terminal masters and got another masters in education and went into public school teaching. I can see her feminist theory library from where I sit. She too did not change her name when we got married, and our two biological children together have her last name since my older two children already have mine. She can regularly be found in her favorite “Notorious RBG” T-shirt, and we recently watched the “RBG” documentary together. She knows about my dissenting views, but is loathe to talk to me about them; and out of respect for her, I don’t say much about any of this on Facebook. (On Twitter, she deals with that by reading my main tweets, which generally steer clear of this kind of content, and stays away from my replies, which do not. And she does not read this board at all, although I think she has a vague sense that this is where I am most unfiltered.) Why is it so psychologically painful for some of you to imagine that someone could be intimately familiar with these philosophies and still be critical of them? Fascinating. I mean, if that were really true, it would require my not only constantly having to hit Wikipedia to research the history and theory of feminism (which itself would make me at least somewhat conversant with these topics, even if in a different way than I am maintaining), but my story about my own family would have to be some sort of fictional creation which I would have to keep in outline form to refer to regularly, to avoid contradicting myself—kind of like a “series bible” a script supervisor uses on a TV show. Stop and think about this for a second. You have just completely thrown away Ockham’s razor. Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/532 "2019-08-07T14:53:30Z")
Like all of the women you’ve encountered in your life, she’s probably too afraid of your giant male brain to honestly discuss these issues with you. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/533 "2019-08-07T15:11:57Z")
Indeed. 😛 I’d be happy to mansplain it to her whenever she is ready though. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/534 "2019-08-07T15:14:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Why is it so psychologically painful for some of you to imagine that someone could be intimately familiar with these philosophies and still be critical of them? Look. It’s not our fault you surrounded yourself with evolved and dominant female figures who make you feel inadequate. Posting here is the way you choose to show your rebellion against their authority. It’s your only real outlet. You’re angry and humiliated. We get it. It’s been obvious for quite some time to everyone here. Shhhhh… say no more. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Fascinating… Get a grip. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/535 "2019-08-07T15:16:47Z")
LOL, very clever. This hypothesis is at least coherent, I’ll give you that. ETA: Well, except for getting my wife to bail on the sociology doctoral program. I am pretty sure her friends from that cohort have yet to forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/536 "2019-08-07T15:33:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: Well, except for getting my wife to bail on the sociology doctoral program. I am pretty sure her friends from that cohort have yet to forgive me. Oh, I bet there’s a list of reasons and that’s not even in the top 5. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/537 "2019-08-07T15:45:35Z")
LOL, maybe! I remember when I was getting to know her best friend from the cohort (they had one year together before I came into the picture, and that ultimately ended up being her last year). I mentioned that when I was at these potlucks for the department, I felt a little bit like I was in the lion’s den, because I had a keen interest in evolutionary psychology. She startled me a bit by throwing her head back and erupting in peals of laughter. 😃 OTOH I don’t think she totally hated me, at least at that point when my wife had not yet left the program, because as we compared notes we discovered that we had eerily similar tastes in premium TV. She described it as our being “TV twins”, which is quite a compliment, because she has a real life brother who is a twin and currently does a podcast with him about feminism in popular culture. (We give them a buck a month on Patreon, and when I comment on the podcast it’s always her brother who responds and never her. Ah well) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/538 "2019-08-07T16:09:26Z")
Were there at least 6 centurions commanding 100 soldiers each in this “cohort”? Who fucking says _cohort_ in this context? JFC. Get over yourself. I’m about to compile a fucking list of why I hate you. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/539 "2019-08-07T16:12:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Were there at least 6 centurions commanding 100 soldiers each in this “cohort”? > > Who fucking says _cohort_ in this context? JFC. Get over yourself. > > I’m about to compile a fucking list of why I hate you. Have fun with that (there’s a Pit thread for me specifically that might be a more appropriate place for it), but FYI “cohort” is the term _they_ used about their own group of doctoral students who started the same year. Not my coinage. ETA: > **[What Is A Graduate School Cohort? - GradSchoolHub.com](https://www.gradschoolhub.com/faqs/what-is-a-graduate-school-cohort/)** > > Get an answers the question: What is a Graduate School Cohort? > [@](#): > > Many students considering graduate school have begun to hear about cohort groups, but may find it challenging to find an overview of what such a group actually is. This is because graduate cohorts, their definition and organization, vary from school to school. Each university typically has their own take on how a cohort should be structured and its purpose. Generally speaking, graduate school cohorts are set groups of people who work together for the duration of their program… Ignorance (hopefully) eradicated. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/540 "2019-08-07T16:17:07Z")
I have no idea what they said. I know what you’re saying. And it’s fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/541 "2019-08-07T16:19:16Z")
BTW, I feel confident that there is only one _real_ reason on your list of why you hate me, which is that I put you in your place intellectually and that makes you very frustrated and angry. There, there. ETA: Wow, doubling down even in the face of my cite? OK then. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/542 "2019-08-07T16:25:17Z")
Have you ever in your life experienced an original thought? What a momzer. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/543 "2019-08-07T16:28:33Z")
Sick burn. :rolleyes: ETA: But at least TIL a new Yiddish word. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=28)