# Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677 "2019-07-26T18:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/101 "2019-07-26T22:41:28Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > I am not sure what being an incel has to do with sex slaves or any other nonsense. The word incel solely means “involuntarily celibate”. There are crazy people among every group or demographic. There’s no such thing as an “involuntary celibate”. Anyone can get laid, including so-called “incels”. They just need to lower their standards. They’re not mad because they can’t get a girl. They’re mad because they can’t get a fuckin’ _beauty queen_. Their celibacy is _entirely_ self-imposed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/102 "2019-07-26T22:43:18Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > … shouldn’t we be concerned if the stats show more and more men are becoming involuntarily celibate? Or worry about how we’re going to address that as a society? No, that is a problem that should probably be addressed individually, because we probably won’t invent a universal cure for unappealing entitled misogynistic asshole. > [@](#): > > I notice Japan has managed to attain massive celibacy levels without much social discord. I am not sure the West will be able to do this. I would guess Japan managed to do this because they are more stoic or withdrawn people… I just knew you were the kind of person to guess based on stereotypes of other cultures (please note: Japanese people are neither particularly stoic nor withdrawn; in fact, these aren’t even the _usual_ racist stereotypes, they are just being made up for this argument). I’m actually surprised you didn’t bring up the aging demographics. An honest man might also guess about the general availability of firearms, especially since rape culture in Japan is about, give and take, as bad as our own. > [@](#): > > Whereas in the West we have a culture of worshiping sex. So, no idea about Japanese culture, or Western culture, or spelling, at all, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/103 "2019-07-26T22:44:09Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > - In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren’t bitter or hateful at all. [A documentary which happened to feature only three incels.](https://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/45251/1/incel-culture-forums-bbc-three-documentary) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/104 "2019-07-26T22:45:10Z")
“right about _everything_”?? (emphasis mine) Oh, please. Not being totally wrong about some things that are noncontroversial does not mean being right about everything that is, or not coming to the wrong conclusion from the evidence. The only thing to be done, is for the self proclaimed “incels” to get over it and over themselves. So life is not the way we’d like it to be? Old news. > [@TheFuture](#): > > seems like the only viable solution and I think sex dolls will eventually need to fill that void. The technology though might take another 20-30 years to become useful so until then I think it’s going to get uglier out there. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > As already explained, many already have access to sex. But it doesn’t match their own imagined automatic entitlement to women they consider conventionally beautiful. Sex dolls aren’t going to fix that. Instead, they’ll make up some excuse about how it’s not the same thing or not an adequate substitute. _“I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before the next decade is out, to land a fully functional sexdroid on an incel and return him safely to Earth. We choose to do this not because it’s easy, but because it’s haaahhd…”_ ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/105 "2019-07-26T22:45:47Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > And I’m still very unclear on what points he think they are trying to make. Mostly I would summarize the points I think from that page as: - Personality matters but not not how people commonly claim. - Autism creates a very high likelihood of men ending up alone and virgins even though autistic men want relationships as much as anyone else. - A man’s race is very important to women eg. Asian men get 11 times fewer messages than white ones. - Looks are more important than personality for both men and women in dating. - Height is very important for men in dating. - Money is somewhat important for men in dating. - Online dating is making it easier for women to endorse their natural instinct to seek the best men. - The top men are having more sex than ever while overall male celibacy is rising. - Men dominate online dating platforms and the thirst is real. I don’t think most people acknowledge in public the above points. I haven’t heard much of it except that money matters and most people know from experience that height matters. I was pretty surprised by the race studies. And it’s interesting to see these effects quantified. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/106 "2019-07-26T22:46:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, incels generally have four options: > > 1. Continue the unhappy status quo forever; > 2. Go abroad (not that incel-dom isn’t a thing abroad, but most of the discussions about it are about American incels; and even an ugly American is usually granted a certain ‘status’ in some foreign countries); > 3. Improve themselves (depending on situation, much easier said than done - for instance, if you have 3rd-degree burn scars over half your body, that’s not cheaply or easily fixed) > 4. Try to change society’s attitudes Really? You can’t think of anything else at all that an incel could do to make themselves more appealing to others? > [@TheFuture](#): > > I didn’t even see it from an incel forum. I wouldn’t want to spend time on one of those forums because I’m sure they’d be depressing as hell. I saw it from another subreddit post which has now been deleted. How convenient. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It’s really weird how women do not like to date men who are angry, bitter, self absorbed and generally dislike women except as a place to put their penis. > > I guess we’ll never know exactly why women feel this way. Total mystery. We vote each quarter. If your name isn’t on the “fuckable” list, you are shit outta luck. I want to acknowledge the men of the Dope who have stepped up to give this thread all of the consideration it deserves (and sometimes more - clicking on that link is a whole other kind of selfless). Y’all rock. I’d say it was sweet that **Velocity** now has someone to seriously discuss these issues with, but it’s really not. You are both fuckwits. Sod off. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/107 "2019-07-26T22:46:43Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > They just need to lower their standards. Not even sure this part is true (and it’s a bit demeaning in any case). Part of their inferiority complex is the idea that they themselves are undesirable. So, the thinking goes, anybody who would have anything to do with them is automatically undesirable themselves. It’s a nasty Catch-22 they impose on themselves. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/108 "2019-07-26T22:49:35Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > No, that is a problem that should probably be addressed individually, because we probably won’t invent a universal cure for unappealing entitled misogynistic asshole. > > I just knew you were the kind of person to guess based on stereotypes of other cultures (please note: Japanese people are neither particularly stoic nor withdrawn; in fact, these aren’t even the _usual_ racist stereotypes, they are just being made up for this argument). I’m actually surprised you didn’t bring up the aging demographics. An honest man might also guess about the general availability of firearms, especially since rape culture in Japan is about, give and take, as bad as our own. > > So, no idea about Japanese culture, or Western culture, or spelling, at all, huh? So if you know more about Japanese culture, why have they been able to attain such a high level of celibacy in young people without any problems? Or have they experienced the same problems as the west? I am honestly curious. I don’t know that answer. If I knew everything in life I wouldn’t be asking questions or trying to get people’s opinions. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/109 "2019-07-26T22:51:44Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > . . . there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going. . . . No, there isn’t. I read five of those studies at random (I’m not going to waste any more of my time reading any more), and they don’t support the conclusion which “incels” draw about these issues. Nice try. Now I’m going to do something more productive with my time. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/110 "2019-07-26T22:54:16Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Mostly I would summarize the points I think from that page as: > > - Personality matters but not not how people commonly claim. How do you think they think it matters? > [@](#): > > - Autism creates a very high likelihood of men ending up alone and virgins even though autistic men want relationships as much as anyone else. > - A man’s race is very important to women eg. Asian men get 11 times fewer messages than white ones. > - Looks are more important than personality for both men and women in dating. > - Height is very important for men in dating. > - Money is somewhat important for men in dating. > - Online dating is making it easier for women to endorse their natural instinct to seek the best men. > - The top men are having more sex than ever while overall male celibacy is rising. > - Men dominate online dating platforms and the thirst is real. Ok, no big surprises, but so what? What’s next? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/111 "2019-07-26T22:56:27Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Well I think what you’re saying is “violent and hateful incels are the problem”, because: I think that what I’m saying is that Incels are the problem, because I fucking straight up said Incels are the problem. The term is a label for a specific group and, in my opinion, should always be capitalized as such (though I’m imperfect at that myself). > [@TheFuture](#): > > - Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label “incel” and mostly posted on [bodybuilding.com](http://bodybuilding.com) so he couldn’t have been part of an “incel” hate group if one didn’t yet exist. > - In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren’t bitter or hateful at all. The Incel hate group probably existed for a while before it decided to adopt the deliberately-deceptive label “Incel” for marketing reasons. And from what I understand, the path to becoming an Incel is a slow one - you go there seeking support and camaraderie, and as you spend time in the group you start to adopt their ways. (This happens with all kinds of groups, not just Incels.) I also gather that as you become acclimatized to a given group’s level of Incelishness and start to reflect it in your speech and posting style, you’ll be guided to other discussions where a slightly more hardcore attitude is present. As you acclimatize to each ‘level’ you will be exposed to harsher and harsher attitudes, until you join them in spouting hatred and bitterness and calls for violence that would have repelled you when you first approached the group. You keep diving in deeper and deeper because you seek the support of the community, and the further into the community you get the more it seems that they’re the only group that supports you. (Possibly because everyone else now sees you as an asshole.) I gather that becoming a neo-nazi works the same way - you’re mostly seeking camaraderie and brotherhood, and come away as a person who can’t find camaraderie with nonradicalized people. > [@TheFuture](#): > > Again, there also does exist communities of female incels. I posted an example of one above who just seemed like a normal sad lonely girl. So saying incel = hateful misogynist as an automatic assignment does not make sense. You’ve utterly failed to provide evidence that “femcels” share anything with incels but the general attitude that they’re lonely and wish they were luckier in love. Most likely when they chose the appellation they had fallen for the lie that “Incel” _just_ means involuntarily celibate, and only later learned that the term had another meaning (that they explicitly distance themselves from). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/112 "2019-07-26T22:56:36Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > - Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label “incel” From the article linked in Post #103: > [@](#): > > [T]he term “incel” was actually started by a woman. In 1993, Alana – known by her first name only, presumably for her own safety – created an online relationship support group for people like herself, who were experiencing unwanted sexual inactivity, to discuss their thoughts and feelings with other people. She called the forum’s newsletter “Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project”, which she shorted to INVCEL and then INCEL. “ ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/113 "2019-07-26T22:56:41Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > No, there isn’t. I read five of those studies at random (I’m not going to waste any more of my time reading any more), and they don’t support the conclusion which “incels” draw about these issues. Nice try. Now I’m going to do something more productive with my time. Which ones were bad/wrong? For example, I read the one on height cutoffs: [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565\_The\_height\_of\_choosiness\_Mutual\_mate\_choice\_for\_stature\_results\_in\_suboptimal\_pair\_formation\_for\_both\_sexes](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565_The_height_of_choosiness_Mutual_mate_choice_for_stature_results_in_suboptimal_pair_formation_for_both_sexes) And it was just a graphing of the data right from the research tables. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/114 "2019-07-26T22:58:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > From the article linked in Post #103: So incels as a group were created by women, and remain populated by women in female incel groups, but somehow all incels are hateful mass murdering misogynist men. LOL. That does not make any sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/115 "2019-07-26T23:01:25Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > So if you know more about Japanese culture, why have they been able to attain such a high level of celibacy in young people without any problems? Or have they experienced the same problems as the west? > > I am honestly curious. I don’t know that answer. If I knew everything in life I wouldn’t be asking questions or trying to get people’s opinions. Here’s a guess: the Incel discussion boards are likely mostly in English, slowing the group’s spread to countries that don’t use English as a first language. Again, celibacy isn’t actually a problem - that’s a stupid Incel lie. Normal humans can be celibate just fine without going on murder sprees. It takes a certain kind of groupthink to start idolizing murders, so without such a group the only negative societal effect of celibacy is a lowered birth rate. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/116 "2019-07-26T23:03:01Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > So incels as a group were created by women, and remain populated by women in female incel groups, but somehow all incels are hateful mass murdering misogynist men. LOL. That does not make any sense at all. Given that that’s obviously not what happened, it’s not surprising that your silly nonsense doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/117 "2019-07-26T23:03:06Z")
Back to the OP’s first question: what do we do about incels? I propose exile. Antartica maybe? The moon is an option, but there are gravity well issues that I’m not happy about. Floating city in international waters? Nations could take turns dropping off rations. ---
**Author:** ![TheFuture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@TheFuture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFuture)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/118 "2019-07-26T23:03:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Here’s a guess: the Incel discussion boards are likely mostly in English, slowing the group’s spread to countries that don’t use English as a first language. > > Again, celibacy isn’t actually a problem - that’s a stupid Incel lie. Normal humans can be celibate just fine without going on murder sprees. It takes a certain kind of groupthink to stark idolizing murders, so without such a group the only negative societal effect of celibacy is a lowered birth rate. Yeah but again that doesn’t really make sense since Elliot Rodger went on his killing spree before there was even an incel forum for him to post in and Alek Minassian only referenced 4chan and 4chan was based off of an equivalent Japanese site in the first place. So it would suggest either there’s a cultural difference as it pertains to celibacy, things are overhyped here in the west (“incel bogeymen”), or maybe Japan actually has the same problems but we don’t hear about them in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/119 "2019-07-26T23:05:32Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > Which ones were bad/wrong? > > For example, I read the one on height cutoffs: > > [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565\_The\_height\_of\_choosiness\_Mutual\_mate\_choice\_for\_stature\_results\_in\_suboptimal\_pair\_formation\_for\_both\_sexes](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565_The_height_of_choosiness_Mutual_mate_choice_for_stature_results_in_suboptimal_pair_formation_for_both_sexes) > > And it was just a graphing of the data right from the research tables. Just a skim told me that the study was specifically about _speed dating_. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677/120 "2019-07-26T23:09:20Z")
> [@TheFuture](#): > > or maybe Japan actually has the same problems but we don’t hear about them in the same way. Or maybe there’s more than a touch of media sensationalism and there [isn’t as big a fucking problem](https://thediplomat.com/2019/04/lets-talk-about-no-sex-a-closer-look-at-japans-virginity-crisis/) as this racist bullshit you’ve got going on! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/science-says-incels-are-right-about-everything-what-happens-next/837677.md?page=7)