I read it, but the only part I wanted to respond to was already conceded: he spoke of William of Okham, and how:
By allowing the Bible to be excluded, he anticipates and satisfies my objection.
Wall O’Text omitted by moderator.
Let’s get something straight. You are more than welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board provided you adhere to the rules. Our rules may not be yours, nor may they be to your liking, yet you must abide by them. You have chosen not to do so by insulted another poster in Great Debates. Such behavior is only allowed in The BBQ Pit forum. I encourage you to do so there.
I gave you a warning before. Sufficient warnings in a short period, or should you indicate that you don’t care about such and don’t plan to abide by our rules and you’ll find your ability to post here summarily revoked and we will welcome you to the rest of the Internet. At that point we won’t care where you go so long as it isn’t here.
Try something other than the usual “Iceberg” lettuce alone; don’t forget the dressing, and a little extra salt and pepper, too.
On the extreme off-chance that you’re attempting to participate in good faith, it’s not a matter of ‘trying something different than the usual’, it’s that you’ve so much unnecessary and extra stuff that your actual points are buried so deep that no one wants to go digging for them. And the patronizing and ridiculously affected writing style doesn’t help at all.
In the future, I will respect your rules, if I feel a need to post any of my opinions that may be of a category deemed worthy for great debating. Also, I’m assuming that “The BBQ Pit forum” is sort of like asking someone to step outside, where there are no rules, correct? Therefore I need no long pretenses for showing that someone may be an idiot, if I should feel it appropriate. But I won’t, either inside or outside. I must be an idiot myself, because I cannot adhere to my own beliefs. One is that I believe that no matter how short or long or clear or truthful, one cannot convince an idiot. But to cure ignorance is another matter, as it takes only gentle persuasion. I will try to learn your rules. I will peruse this web site and locate them.
Thanks for giving me another chance.
Here is my rebutal. If you can’t see how this totally refutes your entire argument, then its clearly because you are just not sophisticated enough to understand and should try harder to open your mind.
If a gas giant is needed to sweep away asteroids I’m not sure why that’s a problem. Gas giants have been discovered in other systems. They’re fairly common.
Most meteorites come from from the asteroid belt. The asteroid belt exists because Jupiter’s gravity wouldn’t allow a planet to form there, so one could just as well blame Jupiter for the impacts. Jupiter’s gravity can draw asteroids away, but it also perturbs their orbit and lets them fall towards us. How much life would be harmed by a proposed 1000x increase in impacts is speculative. Life seems particularly resilient, having survived a number of catastrophes. Absent a sterilizing event like the Theia impact I’m not sure if life would care much. There seems to be a controversy over whether life could have actually originated and survived during the Late Heavy Bombardment period.
Could the ancient sages have known all these things, and left the knowledge to us by way of myths and concealed it as in riddles? Can it be a coincidence that of all the Greek gods, Zeus (Jupiter) the head god; biggest and strongest of the Olympians, would have been selected by the Greeks in providing the name for the fifth planet? Perhaps it was not just the high luminosity and high position in the night sky the reason for the name? Jupiter, in myth and modern cosmology, is known to be the ultimate benefactor, or even could turn out to be the ultimate destroyer of the third planet, earth, where humanity resides.
Your wording (Jupiter’s gravity can draw asteroids away, but it also perturbs their orbit and lets them fall towards us…) is extremely parallel to the famous poet Homer, who said this about Jupiter: "That two casks Lie at the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one of good, the other of evil lots, and that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture of the two sometimes meets with evil fortune, at other times with good; but that he to whom is given the cup of unmingled ill, Him wild hunger drives o’er the beauteous earth. And again Homer plainly says: Zeus, who is the dispenser of good and evil to us. "
What about this? Perhaps another coincidence that, in Greek mythology, Phaethon is the name of a hypothetical planet posited to once have existed between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter whose destruction supposedly led to the formation of asteroid belt. In Greek mythology, Phaeton, the son of the sun god Helios, attempted to drive his father’s solar chariot for a day with disastrous results and was destroyed by Zeus.
Could the ancient sages have known all these things, and left the knowledge to us by way of myths and concealed it as in riddles? Can it be a coincidence that of all the Greek gods, Zeus (Jupiter) the head god; biggest and strongest of the Olympians, would have been selected by the Greeks in providing the name for the fifth planet? Perhaps it was not just the high luminosity and high position in the night sky the reason for the name? Jupiter, in myth and modern cosmology, is known to be the ultimate benefactor, or even could turn out to be the ultimate destroyer of the third planet, earth, where humanity resides.
Your wording (Jupiter’s gravity can draw asteroids away, but it also perturbs their orbit and lets them fall towards us…) is extremely parallel to the famous poet Homer, who said this about Jupiter: “That two casks Lie at the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one of good, the other of evil lots, and that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture of the two Sometimes meets with evil fortune, at other times with good; but that he to whom is given the cup of unmingled ill, Him wild hunger drives o’er the beauteous earth. And again Homer plainly says: Zeus, who is the dispenser of good and evil to us.”
What about this? Perhaps another coincidence that, in in line with Greek mythology, Phaethon is the name of a hypothetical planet posited to once have existed between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter whose destruction supposedly led to the formation of asteroid belt. In Greek mythology, Phaeton, the son of the sun god Helios, attempted to drive his father’s solar chariot for a day with disastrous results and was destroyed by Zeus.
Extremely parallel??
It is not wrong, no you do not exist, nor do I.
Wow, and double wow; that’s my cube! I think you aught to open your prescription bottle; are you taking your medication?
I take the double “??” is a request for further clarification. See if you can spot the alluding to a “scientific” explanation for contradicting those that determine the age of the earth, based on “genealogy.” Have you read something similar elsewhere, perhaps in a book one usually finds in most hotel room’s night stands’ drawers?
Ironically, the following is also from the Timaeus:
To this city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called “the first man,” and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened. Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father’s chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals…
Of course. Science is overflowing with metaphors. Global warming is a metaphor for hubris (a nice Hellenic word). Smartphones are a metaphor for ADHD. And, of course, a Saturn V rocket is a tremendous phallic metaphor.
Both Saturn and Uranus do this to lesser extents as well. Your analogy kind of fails there.
Phaeton was so named in the 20th century. While, that’s not a coincidence, it is also the opposite causative direction from the one you posit. It was named in modern times for the myth, rather than the myth reflecting some hidden, arcane knowledge passed down to modern times.
ETA: Also, the very concept of a hypothetical planet between Mars and Jupiter is itself a modern one as was the discovery of the asteroid belt itself.
OK.
Everyone knock off the taunting of Frank111.
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I suspect that this thread has run its course. i will leave it open for a bit to see if it can get back on track, but I am not holding out much hope. Those of you who actually think you want to pursue this topic would be well advised to go back to the discussion and not get sidetracked in hijacks or personal feuds.
= = =
This sort of post is deliberately insulting and if you repeat this sort of behavior, you will forfeit your posting privileges.
[ /Moderating ]
Yep. It can be. It is.
By the way, there are even better coincidences than the one you mention. They don’t mean anything.
Are you people for real? Great debaters you all certainly are. Tell you what, since the majority here appear to be raving scientific geniuses, and I’m not as smart, there is nothing that I could contribute to your debates. Therefore I will save you arbitrators the trouble, and I will voluntarily cancel my account. I have nothing more to do with this site. When anyone of you has an original idea or concept that will be printed in some scientific magazine, let me know. And this guy with the cubes should be in some psychiatric ward, if not posting from one, really!
Well, that’s disappointing.
I’m thinking this well is truly poisoned. Feel free to reset it by starting a new thread on the subject.