# Scientific evidence of God's existence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043 "2008-10-29T03:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/101 "2008-10-31T13:59:13Z")
As an afterthought, the existence of a God-like being in no way proves the truth of any human scripture or religion. Such a being could exist in complete indifference to the Bible, Koran, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/102 "2008-10-31T14:00:02Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Quantum uncertainty can certainly explain the existence of matter in the universe; it cannot explain the existence of the universe. But his point was that quantum uncertainty is an example showing that events do not necessarily need causes. This simple observation kicks the legs out from under the cosmological argument for God. Or, you can destroy it by turning it on itself and letting it self-destruct in a flash of _reductio ad absurdum_. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/103 "2008-10-31T14:23:55Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I know it is pointless to ask, but do you have a cite for any of this? Belief doesn’t equal reality, no matter how hard you squint your eyes and wish it to be so. > > Maybe religious people _do_ see evidence for God everywhere. Probably they’re just deluded. Any way for an undecided person to tell? Of course. > > Just try talking to a religious person about any statement of fact that their religion claims to make. I guarantee it will either be wrong, or directly copied from a science book. > > Is there really a firmament above our heads holding back the rain? Hell no. > > Is the universe a few thousand years old and everything in it was created out of nothing in less than a week? Not a chance. > > Is the Earth roughly spherical, rotating about its axis and revolving around the sun in accordance with the law of gravitation? Of course. > > God had thousands of years to inform his believers of this, but he failed to disclose even the most basic of facts about our world, ever. The only time he tried, by ‘inspiring’ the writers of the Bible, he was wrong about every statement of fact he tried to make. Then _real_ people, scientists and scholars, had to come and correct all of ‘God’s’ misinformation. > > So what is this evidence that believers see? Boobies are nice and sunsets are pretty? Sure there are a handful of data points indicating that God didn’t _entirely_ fail at everything he tried to do. But the safe bet is on “No God” and has been for centuries. Now go ahead and try to convince me otherwise, **lekatt**. All it takes is a preponderance of evidence. > > Besides, I know a lot of depressed people who are also optimists. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain, having almost nothing to do with what you believe about the world. You missed the point. One can only see, or believe what his belief system allows. Belief systems work like spam filters to allow only desired material pass. Now the only way to test the authenticity of it is to change your belief system, so that you have a before and after. This is easy if the desire and intent are present, impossible if not. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/104 "2008-10-31T15:51:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You missed the point. One can only see, or believe what his belief system allows. Belief systems work like spam filters to allow only desired material pass. This is obviously wrong though, or else people would never change their minds. Since people do change their minds, something they didn’t believe to be true had to slip through and convince them to believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![thematulaaklives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@thematulaaklives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thematulaaklives)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/105 "2008-10-31T16:12:52Z")
Ive decided that neither scientific proof or the faith that something exists is reliable. How do i know i am within a state of mind to assume that reality is correct? If some great spirit exsists, how do i know it operates by the same rules as nature, physics, science and human law? If science exsists, how am i supposed to rule out all human error and all unmoveable variables? I think in the long run reality and creation are all up to us to decide. with the god theory, we reflect god, so wouldnt our decisions shape the world, and with science everything is infinite and random, so every perception of the truth would be acceptable ---
**Author:** ![thematulaaklives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@thematulaaklives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thematulaaklives)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/106 "2008-10-31T16:15:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You missed the point. One can only see, or believe what his belief system allows. Belief systems work like spam filters to allow only desired material pass. > > Now the only way to test the authenticity of it is to change your belief system, so that you have a before and after. This is easy if the desire and intent are present, impossible if not. You are an insightful person and I appreciate that. People, both religious and atheist take all the words of legend, history, and text too seriously. Not everything has to be literal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/107 "2008-10-31T16:27:55Z")
> [@thematulaaklives](#): > > I think in the long run reality and creation are all up to us to decide. Then why don’t you decide you can fly? Being able to fly would be both fun and convenient. If reality really is just what you decide it is, then you should have no trouble. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/108 "2008-10-31T19:34:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > This is obviously wrong though, or else people would never change their minds. Since people do change their minds, something they didn’t believe to be true had to slip through and convince them to believe otherwise. You are correct. People are forced by their experiences, both good and bad to alter their beliefs. My former beliefs were destroyed by a near death experience. It is usually the bad ones that are the most effective. Occasionally we discovery a “lost tribe” in some remote place that have been doing things and believing things in the same way for hundreds of years. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/109 "2008-10-31T19:36:31Z")
> [@Dumbguy](#): > > An estimated 22 million people in Africa have AIDS. > > Are we having fun yet? Well, _someone_ is, or else how would they get all that AIDS? (d&r) > [@RitterSport](#): > > language (probably) Definitely. Try “The Language Instict” by Steven Pinker. A fascinating read. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/110 "2008-10-31T19:36:38Z")
> [@thematulaaklives](#): > > Ive decided that neither scientific proof or the faith that something exists is reliable. How do i know i am within a state of mind to assume that reality is correct? If some great spirit exsists, how do i know it operates by the same rules as nature, physics, science and human law? If science exsists, how am i supposed to rule out all human error and all unmoveable variables? I think in the long run reality and creation are all up to us to decide. with the god theory, we reflect god, so wouldnt our decisions shape the world, and with science everything is infinite and random, so every perception of the truth would be acceptable I like it, and you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/111 "2008-10-31T19:37:34Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Then why don’t you decide you can fly? Being able to fly would be both fun and convenient. If reality really is just what you decide it is, then you should have no trouble. It’s possible **thematulaaklives** is able to fly, but that reality became very annoying because there was no land, so he/she decided there would be land, and a chair to sit on, and an internet and the SDMB! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/112 "2008-10-31T19:38:57Z")
> [@thematulaaklives](#): > > You are an insightful person and I appreciate that. People, both religious and atheist take all the words of legend, history, and text too seriously. Not everything has to be literal. Actually nothing is literal, and thanks for the kind words. We need to thread on literal thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/113 "2008-10-31T19:51:00Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Well, _someone_ is, or else how would they get all that AIDS? Dude, don’t make me laugh when I’m trying to be all indignant and righteous. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/114 "2008-10-31T20:02:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Actually nothing is literal, Is that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/115 "2008-10-31T20:10:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Quantum uncertainty can certainly explain the existence of matter in the universe; it cannot explain the existence of the universe. Actually, the hypothesis that the universe is a quantum fluctuation on a large scale or otherwise a result of quantum mechanical effects has had some popularity with cosmologists, I understand. And at any rate “God” isn’t an explanation for the supposed first cause problem, anyway. Where’d he come from ? And if the answer is that he’s always been or he came out of nowhere, Occam’s Razor would recommend that we just apply that idea to the universe itself, and cut God out as an unnecessary and unsupported hypothesis. After all, we have plenty of evidence for the universe; none at all for God, or even that God CAN exist. The latter, by the way, is one reason why the hypothesis that the universe spawned from a previous universe is more plausible than saying “God did it”. We know that universes CAN exist, and that at least one DOES exist; we have no evidence that a God can. > [@CurtC](#): > > But his point was that quantum uncertainty is an example showing that events do not necessarily need causes. This simple observation kicks the legs out from under the cosmological argument for God. Exactly. Regardless of whether or not quantum mechanics was what kicked off the universe, it does demonstrate that the old idea that every effect needs a cause is simply wrong. > [@thematulaaklives](#): > > If science exsists, how am i supposed to rule out all human error and all unmoveable variables? That’s what science does for itself, or tries to, with some success. If you are waiting for perfection, you are waiting for the impossible. And the track record of science is far, far, far, far, far, far better than that of religion, when it comes to understanding reality. > [@thematulaaklives](#): > > I think in the long run reality and creation are all up to us to decide. As said, fly. Or walk through a wall. I’d sure hate to take a ride in a car or plane designed by someone who agreed with you; a vehicle built with the idea that reality is what you say it is would work poorly. Reality is what it is, and your opinion of what it should be will be met with complete indifference by those stubborn laws of physics. > [@thematulaaklives](#): > > with the god theory, we reflect god, so wouldnt our decisions shape the world, and with science everything is infinite and random, so every perception of the truth would be acceptable Being imaginary, the “god theory” ( a gross misuse of the word theory; more of a “God unfounded assertion” ) says whatever that particular believer says it does. And science isn’t at all like what you describe; few things are infinite, and science is a systematic, rational effort for discovering the order of the world, not “random”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/116 "2008-10-31T20:16:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Actually, the hypothesis that the universe is a quantum fluctuation on a large scale or otherwise a result of quantum mechanical effects has had some popularity with cosmologists, I understand. Quantum fluctuations _of what_? > [@](#): > > And at any rate “God” isn’t an explanation for the supposed first cause problem, anyway. Where’d he come from ? And if the answer is that he’s always been or he came out of nowhere, Occam’s Razor would recommend that we just apply that idea to the universe itself, and cut God out as an unnecessary and unsupported hypothesis. After all, we have plenty of evidence for the universe; none at all for God, or even that God CAN exist. I’m not sure if this is supposed to be directed at me or not. Like I said, my personal opinion is that there is some sort of higher plane above which we cannot even begin to comprehend, human beings not being hard-wired for that sort of stuff, but to make the leap to a deistic being, especially to the Abrahamic God, would be puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/117 "2008-11-01T03:12:36Z")
> [@Dumbguy](#): > > An estimated 22 million people in Africa have AIDS. > > Are we having fun yet? Well what have you done to help with the aids epidemic? Thousands of people starve to death every day too. Millions live in brutal enslavement. Millions die in war, and billions struggle with poverty. We can’t cure aids yet, but we could stop it’s spread and extend life. War is our own damn fault, no outside force makes us fight. So is poverty. The earth could potentially feed everybody. The reasons it doesn’t are mostly **economic**. Since it’s with in our own abilities to greatly reduce suffering but we don’t what’s that say about us? Clearly we’re all cruel heartless sociopaths. ---
**Author:** ![mbedell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mbedell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbedell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/118 "2008-11-01T04:58:33Z")
Der Trihs, I have to say that my initial reaction to your follow-up posts was astonishment. Its obvious that you are a staunch atheist. You stated, "Well, you’re wrong; there’s no such thing as “spirit”. This is where the conversation ends my friend. If you don’t believe that you even have a spirit then everything I have said is superfluous. There is an “eternal” world beyond this world. It exists whether you believe it exists or not. I just hope you dont have to have a near-death experience, similar to Lekatt, to find out before you run out of time. Not sure what your age is, but your perspective may change as you mature and and get closer to your own mortality. I hope you a have a very long and fullfilling life. I do man. I just need to put this in perspective for you and others since other members hold your opinions in high regard. I will leave you wit this. Do you have a girlfriend or wife? I presum you love here. Do you desire for that love to continue after death? Do you believe that love continues after death? I have to ask what the purpose of this “debate” thread is. What are we debating?? All or most of you on this board have already made up your mind that God does not exist and take pride in it. Well, the majority of the world disagrees with you. As somebody eluded to here, religion cannot be “forced” on you. Your correct, that just drives people away. There has to be “willingness” or a “desire” to find God. I cant make it any clearer than that. You cant possibly have a discussion about God without opening your mind AND heart. The heart “transcends” logic. You will never get to “know” or “understand” the Christian God by using classical logic. It will never happen. Dr. Cube, Your arrogant comments absolutely mystify me when you say the following: "God had thousands of years to inform his believers of this, but he failed to disclose even the most basic of facts about our world, ever. " “All it takes is a preponderance of evidence.” 1. Our divine God can do WHATEVER wants. He is our creator. 2. God doesnt NEED to show you evidence. If he provided evidence on command that would justify you asking for it. Can you see how arrogant your statements are? We are “vessels” gentleman. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/119 "2008-11-01T05:45:35Z")
> [@mbedell](#): > > 1. Our divine God can do WHATEVER wants. He is our creator. > 2. God doesnt NEED to show you evidence. If he provided evidence on command that would justify you asking for it. Can you see how arrogant your statements are? > > We are “vessels” gentleman. There are many, many traditions that claim explain mankind’s purpose. There are others that make claims about the nature of the universe but do not decide upon a purpose for mankind. How do I decide which is the is correct? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043/120 "2008-11-01T07:13:41Z")
> [@mbedell](#): > > I have to ask what the purpose of this “debate” thread is. What are we debating?? > … > All or most of you on this board have already made up your mind that God does not exist and take pride in it. Well, the majority of the world disagrees with you. … You will never get to “know” or “understand” the Christian God by using classical logic. The purpose of the debate is to answer the original post. I guess you should categorise me as an atheist. My answer to the original post is ‘any evidence at all would sway me’. Really, even a shred of the most tenuous circumstantial evidence would give me pause for thought. The majority of the world’s people believe that your Christian god is fictional. How do you feel about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-evidence-of-gods-existence/470043.md?page=7)