# Scientific examination of reality of the human soul **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2000, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558 "2000-10-04T01:25:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/21 "2000-10-04T12:58:44Z")
Science deals with physical realities. Things that have no physical reality are of no use to science because thay can’t be detected or tested with physical experiments and instruments. That’s why we have faith and philosophy. Faith takes over where science leaves off, attempting to answer those unaswerables (and there are A LOT of ways to interperate those unaswerables). But interestingly, regarding an injured or labotomized person, the uninjured, immortal soul would have no way of accurately contacting the physical world if its host were so disabled. So IMHO, no, science does not prove nor disprove the souls existence, nor could it, nor should it. BTW, science seeks to prove a positive, not a negative. Proof of _something_ does not disprove another, it only proves the _something._ We infer a “disproof” through logic. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/22 "2000-10-04T19:54:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\*I’m not sure how a non-believer can define a soul. I’m afraid I must leave that to the faithful. As to what seperates us from animals, I believe that it is vanity to deny the fact that we _are_ animals. \*\* There’s the rub, unless the proponent can define it in terms the opponent can agree too it’s a fool’s errand to serch for proof. Another good point. _ **If** _ there is something that truly separates us from animals it’s becoming harder and harder to pin down as we learn more about ourselves. I believe the soul exists but I doubt there is a way to find proof to my own satisfaction let alone that of a non-believer. I certainly don’t look for proof in crackpot science. As a Christian, Jesus is my savior but what a friend we have in the Amazing Randi. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/23 "2000-10-04T20:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I recall reading years ago about experiments that weighed people at the moment of death, and a slight decrease in weight was observed. I asked about that particular experiment about 8 months ago in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=11262](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=11262) For those too lazy to click on that link, the details of the 1907 experiment in question are [here](http://www.ghostweb.com/soul.html). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/24 "2000-10-04T20:36:15Z")
**insider** , meet Great Debates. Great Debates, meet **insider**. Asking about the physics of something which is, by definition, nonphysical is not a General Question. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/25 "2000-10-04T23:07:34Z")
What is the difference between a soul that has absolutely no effect on the physical world and a soul that does not exist? If you claim that the soul is immaterial, non-physical, and cannot be detected, in what way is it useful to talk about such an object? By definition, we can know nothing about it. But perhaps the soul is just some kind of energy that science hasn’t gotten around to discovering yet. Well, fine…then the soul really is material, just an exotic sort of material. Then the soul really is amenable to scientific discussion. We could take out our hypermicroscopes and put that sucker on the lab table and cut it open and see what makes it tick. Somehow, I think the believers will be more comfortable sticking with the “non-material” soul. Unfortunately, to me that’s as good as saying that it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/26 "2000-10-05T00:33:30Z")
I’m generally in agreement (see earlier posts). But… What about the so-called “dark matter” that makes up for all the missing mass in the universe? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/27 "2000-10-05T11:52:27Z")
Phobos summed it all up: > [@](#): > > Science has no evidence for or against the existence of a soul. That’s it. End of story. The question has been answered. Wrath: What about dark matter? The whole point of dark matter is that it _does_ have an effect on the universe – that’s how we know that it’s out there! ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/28 "2000-10-05T22:53:10Z")
i think it is safe to say that western science has a bad taste in its mouth in relation to religion. the Galileo incident is the classic example. i think it is reasonable to question the objectivity of both some scientists and people who claim to have a scientific bent. BELIEVING in science is unscientific. there are people with science degrees investigating wierdness. since i never know when new people show up i’ll be redundant. check the book: OLD SOULS by Tom Shroder. it is easy to find reviews on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com). i’ve encountered that business about slight changes in weight at the moment of death, but it has been contradictory. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/29 "2000-10-05T23:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scr4 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Smeghead \* > > ventually, the author decided that you’d have to launch the soon-to-be-deceased into a stable, perfectly well calculated orbit, wait for death, and see how the orbit changed. Of course, there are a few problems > > …the major problem being that change in mass does not cause any change in orbit. If a spacesship splits in two, they don’t go into different orbits, right? They’d continue to float next to each other in the same orbit. I thought the idea was that when the soul is ejected from the body it would push away from the body causing the orbit to collapse. > [@](#): > > What is the difference between a soul that has absolutely no effect on the physical world and a soul that does not exist? How about the soul just has no effect on our _physical_ world. That’s an important distinction, because that means there _more_ things we need to define before we can even ask. ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2000, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/30 "2000-10-08T00:01:25Z")
y’know, theoretically, if you died, all of the potential energy in your system comes out meaning NOTHING. so (since energy is directly realted tomatter) wouldn’t your mass be less than your dead body?? should have phrased this better, jb ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/31 "2000-10-11T02:51:30Z")
I’m kinda curious since people in this thread have suggested that the reason for unconsciousness when the brain is damaged is due to the vehicle of the soul being damaged. Lobotomy was known to completely change people’s personality. The railway worker who had a spike fired through his brain was, for the rest of his life, a completely different person, prone to crude jokes and lack of social graces. Inbalances in neurotransmitters, say, by abuse of Ecstasy over long periods of time results in depression. Lack of sleep, impairs our thinking, and can bring on halucinations. If all of this is due to impairment of the vehicle, what _is_ the soul supposed to be doing, anyway? If the soul’s free will is so completely bound by the brain, what difference is there between its existence and non-existence? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/32 "2000-10-11T03:17:11Z")
I’m a little confused by the idea that even if there were a measurable change in the body’s mass at the exact moment of death, that we would then jump to the conclusion that it must be caused by the soul leaving the body. Why would the soul have mass? Is it made of atoms? (If so, there are ways to detect atoms that are more accurate than a _scale_.) I see the same sort of bizarre logic jumps when discussing psychic phenomena as well. And the burden of proof is always on the person who _doesn’t_ believe it. I just don’t get it. :wanders off muttering: ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/33 "2000-10-11T12:40:50Z")
Yeah, I love that. “There are elephants holding up the tectonic plates.” “No, there are not.” “Well, prove that there AREN’T!” Ha. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the positor of the claim, and NEVER on the skeptic. But, for philosophical questions of God and the soul, we turn to faith, where proof is in the heart, not the brain. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/34 "2000-10-11T20:33:08Z")
Neurobiologist Andrew Newberg at the University of Pennsylvania and colleague Eugene d’Aquili have used a rotating triple-head single-positron emission-computed tomography scanner to examine the brains of people meditating. (It’s in the October issue of _Popular Mechanics_ and is not yet available online.) > [@](#): > > Their subjects were Tibetan Buddhists who agreed to have intravenous tubes inserted in their arms. When they reached a peak meditative state they signaled Newberg to release a radioactive isotope into their veins. In the brain, cells that were more active in meditation took in more isotope, and later gave off more radiation, which the scanner recorded. Similar work is in progress using Franciscan nuns and born-again Pentacostal Christians. > > “The result, one hopes, will be a wonderful journey that will enlighten ourselves as well as the scientific study of religious experience,” Newberg says. I don’t know if they’ll establish the existence of a soul this way, but it would be interesting to determine just what happens in a person’s brain during a religious experience. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/35 "2000-10-11T20:49:46Z")
**jab1** , I’m dying to read the article you mentioned. Did you realy mean it’s in _Popular Mechanics_? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/36 "2000-10-11T21:11:11Z")
Yes, it’s in _PM_, but it’s just one small part of a longer article about scientific mysteries. (Among others are: Is time travel possible? Can the speed of light be broken? Is there extra-terrestrial life? Can we ever cure cancer? Is immortality possible?) I quoted the relevant part in my post. I’m afraid that’s all there is. Sorry to get your hopes up. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/37 "2000-10-11T22:17:06Z")
I doubt this is scientific evidence, but it’s SOMETHING: Identical twins are sometimes vastly different. Even when they are raised in the same environment (well, as close as you can get, being reared by the same parents, going to the same schools, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Gollum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@Gollum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gollum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/38 "2000-10-12T06:50:38Z")
Personally, i agree with Lumpy (lobotomy/behaviour) If there is a soul, why should Brain chemistry/changes affect moral actions which would inturn affect the judgement of the almight with regard to your eternal wellbeing. By inference I think this helps disprove God. But lets stick to science and soul. The identical twins doesnt cut it, in my opinion. There are so many variables within a person, even within the same environment, that even with the same brain they will develop differently. Example (its unnecessary but i just thought of it and i want to share) :- Two identical twins. Both think of sticking out tongue at each other. Due to birth times (seperate) one is able to perform the action before the other. One now has the experience of tongue pokingness while the other suffers from being the tongue pokee. Their brains are now slightly different and will grow apart for the rest of their lives. It was better in my head. I have a feeling I should have left it there. ---
**Author:** ![quasar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@quasar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quasar)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/39 "2000-10-17T04:13:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wrath \* > \*\*I’m generally in agreement (see earlier posts). But… What about the so-called “dark matter” that makes up for all the missing mass in the universe? \*\* You seem to be confusing **ability to detect** with the **nature** , physical or spiritual, of that which you are trying to detect. Dark matter, as its name implies, is massive; it is just not readily detectable with our current technology. The soul, assuming that it exists, is spiritual in nature. As such, it also avoids detection. Hence, their only resemblance rests on the fact that both lay hidden from human perception, conclusive evidence of their existence escapes our knowledge. Nonetheless, as far as their nature concerns, they are totally different. While dark matter is physical and thus potentially detectable, the alleged entity that you call soul is by definition undetectable since it can not exert a force capable of generating measurable effects and thus yield concrete evidence of its existence. Also of relevance, from a feasibility standpoint, dark matter is a scientifically valid construct designed to adjust the existing models of the universe to empirical evidence. On the other hand, the soul is an axiomatic premise developed to “validate” the immortality of the human individual and thus eradicate, or at least diminish, the fears of its own mortality. Concluding, there is no relation whatsoever between the two. ---
**Author:** ![knappy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@knappy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knappy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558/40 "2000-10-17T13:38:04Z")
I remember a story from a European history class that Frederick Barbarossa had a man sealed in an urn on a scale, so that he could detect whether a weight loss occurred at the moment of death by suffocation. I believe that no weight loss was detected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientific-examination-of-reality-of-the-human-soul/35558.md?page=3)