# "Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936 "2010-01-06T19:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/1 "2010-01-06T19:12:05Z")
> **[The Times & The Sunday Times](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/)** > > News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times "Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”. Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence. The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year." If this holds up and dolphins are considered more like a person than other animals, whiat would it mean for how we treat them? Would they have rights? Responsibilities? "Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, who has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, will speak at the same conference. “The scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are ‘non-human persons’ who qualify for moral standing as individuals,” he said." ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/2 "2010-01-06T19:19:20Z")
I’m all for that as long as they’re not moving into MY neighborhood! Damned Cetaceans! They’ll be stealing our jobs next! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/3 "2010-01-06T19:24:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Damned Cetaceans! They’ll be stealing our jobs next! That’s _Cetacean Americans_ if they live next door. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/4 "2010-01-06T19:24:11Z")
“Dolphins have been **declared** the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans” Interesting how no mention is actually made of the scientific body which made this declaration. This article might be accurate and all, but it sure sounds to me like someone got fleeced by one bozo PHD at a university who’s never even seen a real dolphin. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/5 "2010-01-06T19:26:30Z")
All well and good, except that this suggests that we have compassion based on intelligence. Does this mean that we can ignore the rights of chickens, goldfish, and WalMart greeters? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/6 "2010-01-06T19:38:49Z")
And who will speak for the krill? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/7 "2010-01-06T19:40:18Z")
I for one welcome our new sea mammal overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/8 "2010-01-06T19:48:42Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That’s _Cetacean Americans_ if they live next door. And the whole damned place will smell of fish! ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/9 "2010-01-06T19:52:31Z")
If they’re so damned smart, what didn’t they just tell us themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/10 "2010-01-06T19:53:52Z")
Next we’ll be seeing this: [Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs: ‘Oh, Shit,’ Says Humanity](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28315) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/11 "2010-01-06T19:55:39Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And the whole damned place will smell of fish! That’s a derogatory stereotype and you know it. Not all dolphins like fish, and they’re not all happy “Uncle Flippers” who want to jump through hoops for your amusement. I’m interested of the ethical implications of these kinds of things and all, but anyone who says we should respect dolphins because they are “non-human persons” is probably going to accomplish nothing, based on the wording alone. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/12 "2010-01-06T20:00:38Z")
Well, dolphins have a nasty habit of raping their females. Sometimes for days on end. Does this mean we will hold them accountable for such horrible acts? What will be their moral responsibility to society? Also, if they’re so damn smart, why do the keep getting stuck in tuna nets? Fuck that. I want a dolphin burger. Mmm… tasty. ---
**Author:** ![SurrenderDorothy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/surrenderdorothy/32/1221_2.png) [@SurrenderDorothy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SurrenderDorothy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/13 "2010-01-06T20:18:24Z")
This is interesting. Some countries have declared personhood for great apes or are working on it. It’s not as extreme as it sounds. Like it’s not like they’re going to get the right to vote or be showing up at your workplace in a little tie carrying a briefcase or anything. It mostly just means that they have to be treated well. Like you can’t kill or abuse them or use them for experiments or as performers. The basic deal is, “right to life, liberty, and freedom from torture.” Still, I don’t know what I think about declaring dolphins legal persons. I’m generally for it, as far as it being not cool to kill or torture them, but it’s an idea I’d have to get used to. I really think there should be a better name for the whole concept than “personhood” because that makes it sound so bizarre and extreme when really it’s mostly just about treating them better. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/14 "2010-01-06T20:20:46Z")
> [@SurrenderDorothy](#): > > Like it’s not like they’re going to get the right to vote or be showing up at your workplace in a little tie carrying a briefcase or anything. Then what would be the point? The more life resembles The Flintstones, the better, I always say. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/15 "2010-01-06T20:50:49Z")
what’s next? [talking sharks?](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Jabberjaw.png) ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/16 "2010-01-06T20:57:20Z")
But I think Shakes has a good point in that if they are award some of the ‘rights’ of being a person, shouldn’t that come with responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/17 "2010-01-06T21:11:38Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > [Latest news & breaking headlines | The Times and The Sunday Times](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece) > … Would they have … Responsibilities? > … I’m curious as to what “responsibilities” they could have, and how we would ensure that they are carried out. _“you are responsible to jump through this hoop, to ensure this, we will give you a fish.”_ Sounds like we’re good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/18 "2010-01-06T23:16:18Z")
Be punished if they rape or murder other dolphins. And yes, it happens. If a male dolphin has raped a female in the past, should she be granted protection? Should he be isolated from others? What rights does the female have in this case? What responsibilities does the male have? Seems like treated them as a person has all kinds of messy implications. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/19 "2010-01-06T23:41:29Z")
The bigger question is, have they found a way to tax them yet? ---
**Author:** ![NJ\_Kef](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/258eb7/32.png) [@NJ\_Kef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NJ_Kef)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/20 "2010-01-07T00:50:09Z")
Persons is a grammatical term. For dolphins to be treated as persons, one must address a member of their species as “you,” refer to them as “he” or “she,” and believe that individual dolphins think of themselves as an “I” and groups of dolphins think of themselves as “we.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936.md?page=2)