# "Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936 "2010-01-06T19:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/41 "2010-01-07T16:09:21Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > The bigger question is, have they found a way to tax them yet? Given that they live in the deep blue sea, I am sure ACORN is eager to register them to vote, so that seems fair. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/42 "2010-01-07T16:19:39Z")
Dolphins already have the right to be delicious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/43 "2010-01-07T16:26:37Z")
_“You have the right to not echo-locate.”_ ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/44 "2010-01-07T16:27:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > We’ve driven several Dolphin species to extinction. Wait, as far as I know only one dolphin species appears to have been driven to extinction by humans is the [Yangtze River Dolphin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River_Dolphin), and that’s a very recent event (2006). In fact that same link says that: “It would also be the first recorded extinction of a well-studied cetacean species (it is unclear if some previously extinct varieties were species or subspecies) to be directly attributable to human influence.” ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/45 "2010-01-07T17:06:52Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Just curious, but what would you use as a yard stick for rights if not intelligence? Would you give babies the same rights as adults? Would you hold infants responsible if they commit any crimes? Frankly, I don’t know. I think every individual has their own particular value system, and it depends more on culture and upbringing than reasoned philosophy. Society is never as inclusive as the most progressive individuals. We as an enlightened society have only recently decided that the entire human race is worthy of rights. I have no problem with dolphins and apes entering this category in the future, but it will take a lot more than demonstrating their intelligence to make that happen. They will have to enter our cultural consciousness in much deeper ways and we will have to deal with them on a regular basis. Right now dolphins and apes are just distant novelties to most people. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/46 "2010-01-07T17:20:33Z")
I love most mammals—hell, I can’t even watch Animal Planet half the time because I invariably see some animal cop show and witness horrible mistreatment—but this does not, to me, demand that any mammals have rights as we implement them in modern society. I can empathize with fictional creatures, too. Does that require that authors are responsible for not abusing their creations, because I might cry at their mistreatment? Empathy might be necessary for a foundation of rights, but it is not sufficient. Therefore I think it is natural that we should turn towards intelligence. Unfortunately this is not a very fair criterion to use, as we don’t really understand human intelligence, and furthermore, having rights is not predicated on intelligence in humans, anyway. For that matter, neither is participation in society, per se: e.g., we expect that government action is limited even in war against others who otherwise seek to destroy our society. Right now, it seems that rights are pretty much: first, you’d better be human; next, if you’re one of us, you get more. The nice thing about these is they’re fairly straightforward. They do seem rather arbitrary, but then, what would make “intelligence appraisals” non-arbitrary? ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/47 "2010-01-07T17:29:58Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Would you hold infants responsible if they commit any crimes? Certainly they should be accountable for particularly violent crimes - homicide, rape, and violent assault- and to a lesser degree they should be punished for socially dangerous crimes such as drunk driving. I would strongly oppose the death penalty for infants however, maybe with the exception of particularly gruesome crimes . ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/48 "2010-01-07T17:35:07Z")
Well, intelligence is certainly part of it, but intelligence isn’t the only yardstick we use to grant certain species Most Favored Animal status. In some places cows might be revered, in some places monkeys might be granted special status. Start a thread about how you tossed your cat outside in winter because you were sick of its shit, and see what happens. Cats are actually pretty dumb, but we have laws about neglecting them and causing them to suffer. I’m pretty sure if for some reason lots of cats and dogs were regularly being killed 'accidently" during beef slaughtering, we’d be hearing lots of outrage and calls to do something about it. Unfortunately, people can’t keep dolphins as pets, but IMO they are at least as deserving of the same concern and compassion we feel for puppies and kittens. Yet, out of sight, out of mind. I want my tuna salad, and if dolphins have to die horrible, painful, fearful deaths to get it, so be it. Well, that’s a shitty attitude to take towards what is possibly the second most intelligent mammal on Earth, who (yeah, I said “who”) bears humanity no ill will. Okay, if you hang out with them enough, they might take a particular shining to you and try to have sex with you, but then who hasn’t had a dog hump their leg? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/49 "2010-01-07T17:40:24Z")
As long as they haven’t left the planet suddenly with a message thanking us for the fish, I think we are good… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/50 "2010-01-07T17:47:48Z")
As long as we are going outside our jurisdiction and granting rights willy-nilly, why don’t we grant some rights to the folks in Darfur and arrest those bastards who rape and pillage and plunder and all. Other examples come to mind as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/51 "2010-01-07T18:08:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But that’s just it. The reason kids are given so much leeway is their lack of intelligence. As that intelligence increases, they become more eligible for punishment. > > Since even a dog is smarter than a newborn, I’d say dolphins would have to be smarter than babies to be considered persons. But we don’t use intelligence, anyways. Mentally challenged humans are still full persons, no matter their intelligence. We use intelligence when measure rights among humans. I don’t know what you mean when you say “mentally challenged humans are still full persons,” but legally they have less rights than mentally competent humans. What difference does being another species make when we assign rights? > [@erislover](#): > > We should not anthropomorphize dolphins. There is no reason to treat dolphins like humans. > > Asserting things is fun! Do you think dolphins are smart enough to support their arguments? I’m glad you are having fun. Creating nonsensical arguments must be fun too! One reason to treat dolphins like humans is to prevent unnecessary pain and suffering for dolphins. Why can we torture and slaughter dolphins but not mentally retarded people? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/52 "2010-01-07T18:18:37Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > One reason to treat dolphins like humans is to prevent unnecessary pain and suffering for dolphins. Why can we torture and slaughter dolphins but not mentally retarded people? I am not familiar with that use of “torture” but rights as we understand them are largely predicated by “being human.” This suits me fairly well for the moment. What would you have this change to, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/53 "2010-01-07T20:33:34Z")
How did dolphins get the nod over octopuses? I’d wager that some species of octopus are just as smart as some species of dolphins. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/54 "2010-01-07T20:46:40Z")
Why does it take defining ‘non-human persons’ to state the obvious - “stop killing and harming dolphins”. Why do we have to go through all the nonsense to make a simple statement? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/55 "2010-01-07T21:03:10Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I am not familiar with that use of “torture” but rights as we understand them are largely predicated by “being human.” This suits me fairly well for the moment. What would you have this change to, and why? I would want dolphins to be free from unnecessary suffering. This right to be free from unnecessary suffering seems to be something that only the human species enjoys and I would like it to be extended to other species. Not all non-human species, but as far as it is practical. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/56 "2010-01-07T21:08:08Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Why does it take defining ‘non-human persons’ to state the obvious - “stop killing and harming dolphins”. Why do we have to go through all the nonsense to make a simple statement? Because then you have to explain why we need to stop killing and harming dolphins but not cows or cockroaches. And I am not being facetious or snarky. If they will get a treatment different from all other animals, then it has to be due to some special characteristic that makes them different. Witness cats. They are dumb as shit but you cannot abuse them the way you abuse roaches because they have a special status as companion animals. Special status, special treatment. I am all for saving dolphins and I agree with you (I believe) in that calling them non-human persons is ridiculous but you cannot just say save the dolphins for no reason because then you have no response to those who want to save the lambs or the chickens. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/57 "2010-01-07T21:16:33Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > I would want dolphins to be free from unnecessary suffering. This right to be free from unnecessary suffering seems to be something that only the human species enjoys and I would like it to be extended to other species. Not all non-human species, but as far as it is practical. As far as it is practical, eh? Curious. It seems we are in 100% agreement, except that it is not clear to me that granting dolphins rights is practical. I am not an expert on marine life, though. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/58 "2010-01-07T22:53:52Z")
The OP’s link seems like more of an op-ed piece than a news story. Is there actually new research showing that dolphins are smarter than we thought they were? Because in recent decades we have known they are pretty smart. But actually I seem to remember that newer studies have shown that dolphins aren’t as smart as some people were hoping. Any marine biologists in the house? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/59 "2010-01-08T00:17:32Z")
The biggest flaw in this argument is that it basis the treatment of something on its intelligence. Do you see where this leads? There certainly are human beings that are fundamentally retarded and can’t do even the basic skills that dolphins have. Does this mean that those people should be treated “less” than a dolphin? A person starts out as two cells. One could infer these two cells are only potential at that point not actual. This brings in the whole abortion debate. You can’t base treatment of things on intellegence. Even though we do it on that and other things as well. For instance, I’ve seen threads on here about how people want to know how to catch a mouse in their house, but not kill it. I bet most of those same people would have no trouble smashing a cockroach in their house. Why? 'Cause a mouse is cute and a roach is ugly. I believe all living things deserve to be treated humanely and decently. But dolphins simply aren’t humans. Humans have societal norms which are fundamentally different from dolphin. The same way dogs and cats have group dynamics of their species which are unique to them. The most obvious example is a human will teach its offsprings to share, while a dog just accepts his place and doesn’t care all that much if he’s last on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/60 "2010-01-08T00:25:43Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Witness cats. They are dumb as shit but you cannot abuse them the way you abuse roaches because they have a special status as companion animals. Special status, special treatment. Nope, sorry, sea kittens is already taken. Dolphins should have hired their PR faster if they’re so smrt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936.md?page=4)