# "Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936 "2010-01-06T19:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/61 "2010-01-08T00:37:45Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > If this holds up and dolphins are considered more like a person than other animals, whiat would it mean for how we treat them? Obviously we Uplift them. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/62 "2010-01-08T01:40:55Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > The biggest flaw in this argument is that it basis the treatment of something on its intelligence. Do you see where this leads? There certainly are human beings that are fundamentally retarded and can’t do even the basic skills that dolphins have. Does this mean that those people should be treated “less” than a dolphin? > > A person starts out as two cells. One could infer these two cells are only potential at that point not actual. This brings in the whole abortion debate. > > You can’t base treatment of things on intellegence. Even though we do it on that and other things as well. For instance, I’ve seen threads on here about how people want to know how to catch a mouse in their house, but not kill it. I bet most of those same people would have no trouble smashing a cockroach in their house. Why? 'Cause a mouse is cute and a roach is ugly. I have no qualms about treating entities differently based on some sensible measure of mental capacity. And I don’t even know what point you’re making with the mouse and cockroach example–that it’s better to treat things differently based on appearances than intelligence? > [@Markxxx](#): > > I believe all living things deserve to be treated humanely and decently. I don’t. You’re free to treat a cat humanely and decently for your own satisfaction, but I think all living things occupy a range of emotional capabilities, and may be treated accordingly. > [@Markxxx](#): > > But dolphins simply aren’t humans. Humans have societal norms which are fundamentally different from dolphin. The same way dogs and cats have group dynamics of their species which are unique to them. > > The most obvious example is a human will teach its offsprings to share, while a dog just accepts his place and doesn’t care all that much if he’s last on the list. Nobody’s confused about that, that’s why the proposed term is _non_-human person. And your “most obvious example” so hilariously weak and missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/63 "2011-11-29T10:04:51Z")
> [@bup](#): > > If they really had person status, would they be subject to laws and government? > > And, Og help me, was Bill O’Reilly right that if we let gays marry, next someone will want to marry a porpoise? Could porpoises consent? [Next? Human cetacean marriage started in 2006](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3264387,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/64 "2011-11-29T11:41:20Z")
Ants build cities, can communicate with each other, store for the future, grow crops of fungus, and herd aphids. A lot more then any dolphin or great ape has done. So why haven’t they got the vote ? Property rights ? Divorce laws ? Seems unfair to me. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/65 "2011-11-29T11:56:21Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Ants build cities, can communicate with each other, store for the future, grow crops of fungus, and herd aphids. Neither did humans for much of our existance as a distinct species. The native Australians had no agriculture, foodstores or animal-husbandry up until two-hundred years ago, and they certainly didn’t have cities or settlements anywhere near as complex as the ones ants build. Does this mean humans are inferior to ants? Dolphins can handle complex social relationships, communicate with each other, utilise tools and make use of advanced and prey-specific hunting tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/66 "2011-11-29T12:13:44Z")
Love it. Great first step. Next steps: [ul] [li]All other cetaceans[/li][li]Elephants[/li][li]Dogs[/li][li]All great apes[/li][li]All marine mammals[/li][li]Pigs (we can still eat them, because that’s how life works - everything is food - but we have to give them decent lives while they are alive.)[/li][li]Big cats[/li][li]Wolves[/li][li]Crows[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/67 "2011-11-29T12:14:44Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Ants build cities, can communicate with each other, store for the future, grow crops of fungus, and herd aphids. > > A lot more then any dolphin or great ape has done. > > So why haven’t they got the vote ? > > Property rights ? > > Divorce laws ? > > Seems unfair to me. What ants do is not about an individual’s ability to reason, it’s all programmed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/68 "2011-11-29T12:47:48Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > [Next? Human cetacean marriage started in 2006](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3264387,00.html) Who sleeps on the wet spot? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/69 "2011-11-29T13:10:18Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > All well and good, except that this suggests that we have compassion based on intelligence. Does this mean that we can ignore the rights of chickens, goldfish, and WalMart greeters? Eh, there’s more to it than intelligence, but I think that the intelligence of a being plays a decent role in their rights. I mean, let’s take this argument to an extreme, shall we? What about a species which is as intelligent as us, if not more intelligent? Would they get rights? > [@Shakes](#): > > Well, dolphins have a nasty habit of raping their females. Sometimes for days on end. Does this mean we will hold them accountable for such horrible acts? What will be their moral responsibility to society? They would, of course, have an entirely different society. > [@DrCube](#): > > Science doesn’t pertain to morals, and ethicists aren’t scientists. Sam Harris? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/70 "2011-11-29T13:16:14Z")
Does personhood include legal liability? Maybe this whole thing is about getting compensation for the losses to the tuna industry. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/71 "2011-11-29T14:08:42Z")
When people say “dolphins” are smarter than chimpanzees, are they talking about all dolphins or just one species? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/72 "2011-11-29T14:41:31Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > When people say “dolphins” are smarter than chimpanzees, are they talking about all dolphins or just one species? Dolphins are just a type of toothed whale (cetacean). It’s a lay term, not a scientific one. But most studies have been on bottlenose dolphins. Flipper. And there’s more than one species of chimpanzee, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/73 "2011-11-29T16:22:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Dolphins are just a type of toothed whale (cetacean). It’s a lay term, not a scientific one. > > But most studies have been on bottlenose dolphins. Flipper. > > And there’s more than one species of chimpanzee, too. 😉 :dubious: If you’re taling about Bonobos, I don’t believe they are considered chimps anymore, they are their own species. Last I heard, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/74 "2011-11-29T16:24:52Z")
IIRC there are 3 or 4 sub-species of Pan but I don’t remember what they all are. What I do know is that chimp is good eating… ETA: And no, bonobos aren’t one of them, even though IIRC they are classified as Pan something as well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/75 "2011-11-29T18:33:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > :dubious: If you’re taling about Bonobos, I don’t believe they are considered chimps anymore, they are their own species. Last I heard, anyway. Chimpanzee is the lay term for the genus _Pan_. There are two species, of which Bonobos are one: _Pan troglodytes_ and _Pan paniscus_. There are 3 or 4 subspecies of the common chimp, depending on who is doing the splitting. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/76 "2011-11-29T18:54:33Z")
If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in igloos? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/77 "2011-11-29T19:08:10Z")
But… Dolphins are funny! ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/78 "2011-11-29T20:37:17Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But… Dolphins are funny! Why did the dolphin who married a Jewish millionaire kill himself? He had no porpoise! ---
**Author:** ![Xenocrates](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f14d63/32.png) [@Xenocrates](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xenocrates)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/79 "2011-11-29T21:22:23Z")
It seems like this thread is full of people either just treating the whole issue as ridiculous without thinking about it or using some pretty crazy strawmen. This is a moral issue, not a legal issue per se. And nobody is saying we should treat them just like adult humans. If “persons” to you means adult humans, then disregard the use of the word here - what you call it isn’t really important. I personally don’t see how intelligence is relevant for determining, say, whether it is ok to torture some animal (including humans)… that has to do with that animal’s experience of pain. But intelligence, concept of the self (which I believe is what “person” is supposed to refer to here), concept of a personal history, awareness and importance of social relations, etc. ARE relevant for determining whether we can put some animal in a confined environment very different from their natural one with low or unusual social stimulation. Why? Because this kind of situation is likely to induce distress/depression in highly intelligent social animals. I’m ok with giving human babies a moral status above similarly intelligent creatures on the grounds that they are human. But thinking that being human is some kind of magical trait without which a creature isn’t worthy of moral consideration is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/80 "2011-11-29T22:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Chimpanzee is the lay term for the genus Pan. There are two species, of which Bonobos are one: Pan troglodytes and Pan paniscus. For a moment, I read that latter one as _Pan promiscuous_. Which would also be appropriate. To the larger question, such a thing as a non-human person is certainly conceivable, and I have no objection, in principle, to a dolphin or chimp being found to be one. But the line between “person” and “nonperson” is a very fuzzy one, and I’ve yet to see an argument that puts dolphins on the “person” side of the line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936.md?page=5)