# "Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936 "2010-01-06T19:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/81 "2011-11-29T22:43:43Z")
We could pass a law making dolphin species corporations, with a few carefully selected humans as board of directors. Then they could enjoy the constitutional rights afforded personhood. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/82 "2011-11-29T22:46:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For a moment, I read that latter one as _Pan promiscuous_. Which would also be appropriate. 🙂 > [@](#): > > To the larger question, such a thing as a non-human person is certainly conceivable, and I have no objection, in principle, to a dolphin or chimp being found to be one. But the line between “person” and “nonperson” is a very fuzzy one, and I’ve yet to see an argument that puts dolphins on the “person” side of the line. Agreed. I think they both merit treatment above and beyond what is standard and accorded to all animals, but actual “personhood”? Not quite. A more interesting question (and one we’ve discussed in other threads) would be if we resurrected a non-sapien _Hominina_ like a Neanderthal, Erectus, or Australopithecus. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/83 "2011-11-30T02:01:34Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Well, dolphins have a nasty habit of raping their females. Sometimes for days on end. That’s a disgusting, slanderous myth. Dolphins are not misogynistic rapists. They target males just as readily. It’s equal-opportunity rape. I’m of the opinion that dolphins do merit protected status, but I don’t see it actually happening any time soon. It’s still common and accepted to demonize large chunks of humanity as “Them”, unworthy of concern. What hope does a non-human have? ---
**Author:** ![leemadison11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a5b964/32.png) [@leemadison11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leemadison11)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/84 "2011-12-01T06:04:26Z")
There isn’t any doubt that dolphins are the next smartest animal, i abhor people who fish and eat such a beautiful animal. There should be some International organization to keep a tab on their population. There is an amazing video of wild dolphins making a whirlwind around a lone swimmer in the ocean to save him from the shark. Sadly two got injured, but the two got medical attention too from the medics later on. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/85 "2011-12-01T10:14:02Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > We use intelligence when measure rights among humans. I don’t know what you mean when you say “mentally challenged humans are still full persons,” but legally they have less rights than mentally competent humans. What difference does being another species make when we assign rights? I mean exactly what I said. A mentally challenged person is still considered a person under law, even if they are treated more like children in what rights they are given. Personhood itself has never had anything to do with intelligence. It’s about sentience and the potential thereof. ---
**Author:** ![brittekland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@brittekland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brittekland)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/86 "2011-12-01T10:26:56Z")
Next time a dolphins swims by I’m going to see if i can communicate. How should I do this? Body gestures? Point? I guess I will have to experiment
 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/87 "2011-12-01T10:35:00Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > But I think Shakes has a good point in that if they are award some of the ‘rights’ of being a person, shouldn’t that come with responsibilities? Dolphins _have_ responsibilities towards humans, and what is more, they have fulfilled them. Dolpins have never to our knowledge intentionally hurt humans in wild encounters, and they have often greeted us cordially in such circumstances. Dolphins have saved near drowning humans about as often as we saved beached dolphins. So as far as the deal is: grant 'm life, liberty, and freedom from torture" dolphins are holding up their end of the deal better then we do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/88 "2011-12-01T16:10:31Z")
> [@leemadison11](#): > > There isn’t any doubt that dolphins are the next smartest animal
 Yes, there is. We don’t really have a good way of measuring “intelligence” in non-humans. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/89 "2011-12-01T21:55:45Z")
Heck, it’s hard enough measuring intelligence in humans, without things like cultural biases getting in the way. When you also have to deal with physical or environmental biases like lacking opposable thumbs or living in water, forget about it. We can’t really compare how good chimps and dolphins are at thinking through problems they encounter, because chimps and dolphins encounter very different sorts of problems. And even if you try for something general like “ability to outsmart predators”, well, does that mean that dolphins who outsmart sharks are smarter than chimps who outsmart lions, or does it just mean that sharks are stupider than lions? ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/90 "2011-12-02T00:12:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, there is. We don’t really have a good way of measuring “intelligence” in non-humans. We don’t have a good way of measuring intelligence in humans outside 70-120IQ. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/91 "2011-12-02T00:28:28Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > We don’t have a good way of measuring intelligence in humans outside 70-120IQ. I purposely avoided mentioning human intelligence. I didn’t want to get into a rat hole about what that is, but it certainly is correct to say that our definitions of human intelligence tends to be rather narrow. There are many kinds of intelligences. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/92 "2011-12-02T00:54:54Z")
I’m all for animal rights
 coming from the animals when they get the sufficient amount of signatures, assemble their lobby, learn to communicate without barking, mooing, clucking or tossing a ball through a hoop. Seriously, until all that happens, Fido, Flipper and Flicka are NOT our equals. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/93 "2011-12-02T01:19:16Z")
[Here](http://www.theonion.com/articles/study-dolphins-not-so-intelligent-on-land,1896/) is something you might all want to read before considering dolphins to be non-human persons. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/94 "2011-12-02T02:30:50Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > But I think Shakes has a good point in that if they are award some of the ‘rights’ of being a person, shouldn’t that come with responsibilities? Does that apply to human babies, too? ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/95 "2011-12-02T05:03:19Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Dolphins _have_ responsibilities towards humans, and what is more, they have fulfilled them. Dolpins have never to our knowledge intentionally hurt humans in wild encounters, and they have often greeted us cordially in such circumstances. Dolphins have saved near drowning humans about as often as we saved beached dolphins. So as far as the deal is: grant 'm life, liberty, and freedom from torture" dolphins are holding up their end of the deal better then we do. Even if they weren’t I still think they should be granted rights, to the extent they don’t put other sentients (i.e. us) in danger. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > [Here](http://www.theonion.com/articles/study-dolphins-not-so-intelligent-on-land,1896/) is something you might all want to read before considering dolphins to be non-human persons. /thread ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/96 "2011-12-02T05:11:50Z")
I think all non human animals should be treated more kindly. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientists-say-dolphins-should-be-treated-as-non-human-persons/523936/97 "2011-12-03T00:06:43Z")
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