# Scientology a religion or a cult? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126 "2012-07-03T18:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/21 "2012-07-04T00:14:07Z")
> [@the\_apples\_fell](#): > > It’s more of an ideology than a religion, and manifests itself in a cult-like fashion. Well, **every** religion is also an ideology, in that it is a set of hyper-irrational shortcuts to avoid thinking. I think the definition of “cult” is so murky that we can’t say that any group or organization is or isn’t a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/22 "2012-07-04T00:44:12Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Well, **every** religion is also an ideology, in that it is a set of hyper-irrational shortcuts to avoid thinking. > > I think the definition of “cult” is so murky that we can’t say that any group or organization is or isn’t a cult. I disagree. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/23 "2012-07-04T00:46:25Z")
As **greenslime1951** said in a previous posting: **_It is undeniably a totally batshit, wack-job attempt by someone who was either a loony (if he believed in it himself) or a con artist (if he didn’t) to offer weak-minded people the illusion of control over their lives_.** Damned right. To me it is a joke - just as mixology is a “serious” discipline. To me, I think L Ron Hubbard thought “heck you can make a religion about any piece of crap as long as you can get people to believe in it.” And as others have said, when something is declared a religion then the tax laws go right out the window. I believe other laws also may not apply such as child labor laws which the church supposedly violated. ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/24 "2012-07-04T01:35:16Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > JMHO > > The attitude of this perception is > > “If youre not my religion, yours is a cult” That s a bit harsh. I have no religion at all, just trying to find out why Scientology is being called a religion. I can respect some of the members of number of mainline religions if they are decent people, do not try to convert me and try to do good and live peacefully. Never in my life have I accused some religion of being a cult. Well, perhaps the Jonestown folk. Nothing I wrote deserves that snarky reply. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/25 "2012-07-04T01:38:35Z")
I think the best definition of the difference I read is a religion is something you are born in. A cult is something you join when you are an adult. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/26 "2012-07-04T01:43:08Z")
I thought we weren’t allowed to call each other a “cult” on the SD anymore. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/27 "2012-07-04T02:27:44Z")
I seem to recall one of my Sociology texts in college defining “cult” as any religious sect or movement based on the teachings of a single charismatic leader who specifically seeks followers and adherents.( or something similar to that) It went on to talk about the fact that 20th century popular culture had given most people the wrong idea of what “cult” actually meant. I remember specifically the text mentioning that by definition Christianity was the largest “cult” the world had ever seen. I personally don’t know enough about the history of L. Ron or Scientology to make a judgement on whether Scientology would fit that particular definition or not. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/28 "2012-07-04T02:43:05Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > I seem to recall one of my Sociology texts in college defining “cult” as any religious sect or movement based on the teachings of a single charismatic leader who specifically seeks followers and adherents.( or something similar to that)\ > > I personally don’t know enough about the history of L. Ron or Scientology to make a judgement on whether Scientology would fit that particular definition or not. Here is a **[checklist](http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm)** for characteristics of a cult. The Bare-Faced Messiah link I posted up above is a biography about L. Ron Hubbard. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/29 "2012-07-04T02:56:59Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Here is a **[checklist](http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm)** for characteristics of a cult. The Bare-Faced Messiah link I posted up above is a biography about L. Ron Hubbard. Yikes. I don’t think I’d be linking to anything by the ICSA. They’re kinda scary and not anything close to objective, being formed by family members who supposedly lost their children to groups they (the parents/founding members of ICSA) decided were cults. Worse, they’re not even any good at science. From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > In their 2009 book, Cults and New Religions: A Brief History, sociologists Douglas Cowan and David Bromley describe the ICSA as a “secular anticult” organization. They point out that the ICSA provides no indication of how many of their so-called characteristics are necessary for a group to be considered “cultic.” The checklist creators do not adequately define how much of certain practices or behaviors would constitute “excessive,” nor do they provide evidence that any of the practices listed are innately harmful. Finally, Cowan and Bromley criticize the ICSA list as being so broad that even mainstream organizations such as Evangelical Protestantism, the Roman Catholic Church, Buddhism and Hinduism fall within the criteria.[17] [International Cultic Studies Association - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cultic_Studies_Association) The ICSA were basically the creators of the Satanic Panic which is now looked upon with such embarrassment by doctors, police officers and media members alike. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/30 "2012-07-04T03:08:06Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yikes. I don’t think I’d be linking to anything by the ICSA. They’re kinda scary and not anything close to objective, being formed by family members who supposedly lost their children to groups they (the parents/founding members of ICSA) decided were cults. Worse, they’re not even any good at science. > > From wikipedia: > [International Cultic Studies Association - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cultic_Studies_Association) > > The ICSA were basically the creators of the Satanic Panic which is now looked upon with such embarrassment by doctors, police officers and media members alike. That I didn’t know! I’d seen checklists like that around other places too, like on the Xenu site. I think they had more detail though, and explained more though. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/31 "2012-07-04T03:14:35Z")
Is **[this](http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/the-cult-checklist/)** better? ---
**Author:** ![Yask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Yask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yask)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/32 "2012-07-04T03:45:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > There are lots of ex-Scientologists who are perfectly happy to share their “secrets,” but in order to get much official information out of the actual group, you’ve got to become a member. What’s the most-suckered person to come out with secrets? The xenu/volcano batshit and whatever else I can’t rmember from that South Park episode were secrets told by ex members. Is there any accounting for how much that gave? Are millionaires (or ex-millionaires) among that group? Just people who gave tens of thousands? Could there be even wackier ‘secrets’ awaiting for a defector? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/33 "2012-07-04T04:26:00Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Is **[this](http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/the-cult-checklist/)** better? Much better. It’s very similar Isaac Bonewits’ [ADVANCED BONEWITS CULT DANGER EVALUATION FRAME](http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html) (ABCDEF, get it?), which is at least referenced (positively) in many introductory Religious Studies/Psychology of Religion textbooks, if not reprinted outright. The best thing about it, IMHO, is that it allows for relative weights to be given to different aspects, depending on their intensity, and allows for a numerical representation that can be used to compare groups. The higher the total number score, the greater the risk of harm to members of the group. Now, I’m not at all sure that the ABCDEF has been tested empirically, but it has a great deal of “truthiness” to it, and it does have a history of being used in the field. It’s easy to score something like Heaven’s Gate and see a high number, and see that something like Amway, which is often referred to as a cult, does indeed have some qualities of a cult, but isn’t a particularly dangerous one, numerically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/34 "2012-07-04T13:18:29Z")
The term ‘cult’ is kind of meaningless. One could argue that science fiction show followings are close to being cults. The term you want to look for is [destructive cult](http://www.factnet.org/what-destructive-cult) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/35 "2012-07-04T14:24:14Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The term ‘cult’ is kind of meaningless. One could argue that science fiction show followings are close to being cults. Okay. Go for it. Pick a science fiction fandom and argue that it’s a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/36 "2012-07-04T14:31:13Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Okay. Go for it. Pick a science fiction fandom and argue that it’s a cult. Really? > **[Cult following](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_following#Examples)** > > A cult following is a group of fans who are highly dedicated to a person, idea, object, movement, or work, often an artist, in particular a performing artist, or an artwork in some medium. The latter is often called a cult classic. A film, book, musical artist, television series, or video game, among other things, is said to have a cult following when it has a very passionate fanbase. > A common component of cult followings is the emotional attachment the fans have to the object of the cult follow... They even call them ‘cult films’. They aren’t talking about the Moonies. > **[Trekkie | Religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekkies#Religion)** > > The central trio of Kirk, Spock and McCoy was modeled on classical mythological storytelling. Shatner said: > [@](#): > > According to Michael Jindra of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, the show’s fandom “has strong affinities with a religious-type movement”, with “an origin myth, a set of beliefs, an organization, and some of the most active and creative members to be found anywhere.” While he distinguishes between Star Trek fandom and the traditional definition of religion that requires belief in divinity or the supernatural, Jindra compares Star Trek fandom to both “‘quasi-religions,’ such as Alcoholics Anonymous and New Age groups”—albeit more universal in its appeal and more organized—and civil religion. :rolleyes: Again, not a destructive cult, just a cult. Cults can be perfectly harmless, even fun. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/37 "2012-07-04T15:24:22Z")
Scientology is an evil cult hellbent on trying to rule the world ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/38 "2012-07-04T16:37:34Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Again, not a destructive cult, just a cult. Cults can be perfectly harmless, even fun. So, is the Dope a cult? 😃 From all of the above, I admit the definition of “cult” is too fuzzy to even consider. “Religion” is also somewhat open to interpretation. To help answer my question in the OP as to whether Scientology is a religion, I wonder if members worship any god, Jesus, Mohammad, Ra or L. Ron Hubbard? Interesting that no Scientology member or former member has jumped in to this thread. Are they forbidden from posting to this forum by their leaders, or do the SDMB powers-that-be forbid members from posting? Again, 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gunnergoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e95f7d/32.png) [@gunnergoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunnergoz)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126/39 "2012-07-04T16:38:23Z")
It is the societal equivalent of a blood-sucking parasite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-a-religion-or-a-cult/627126.md?page=1)