# Scientology and Tax Exemption **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234 "2017-11-10T19:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/1 "2017-11-10T19:30:15Z")
Churches have enjoyed tax exemption in the USA since 1894. In my opinion, churches should pay taxes too, but that’s for lawmakers to decide. They say Trump is considering revoking Scientology’s tax exemption. I’m 100% for it, but what about the law? [cite](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-scientology-tax-exemption_us_5a04dd35e4b05673aa584cab) ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/2 "2017-11-10T19:33:02Z")
I’ve just realized this belongs in Great Debates. I’ve already reported it. (sorry) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/3 "2017-11-10T19:38:01Z")
If he attempts to do this, he will learn what “fighting dirty” _really_ means. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/4 "2017-11-10T19:41:54Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I’ve just realized this belongs in Great Debates. I’ve already reported it. > (sorry) Moved. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/5 "2017-11-10T19:46:00Z")
I just finished the article, and it looks like it isn’t gonna happen: > [@](#): > > In her last email to Remini sent on June 8, Patton sent a link to a New York Post article about actor Tom Cruise and his position in the Church of Scientology. “By the way, when things calm down about Comey, etc, and I get more due diligence on the IRS, I’ll circle back,” she wrote. > > It’s unclear exactly what Patton was referencing with respect to former FBI Director James Comey. But the day she sent that email to Remini, Comey had testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee sharing his account of the circumstances around his termination by Trump. > > Remini never heard from Patton again. Months later, Patton would be photographed publicly with a Scientologist who has quickly risen up the ranks in Trump world. Should have known they would side with power. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/6 "2017-11-10T20:14:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Should have known they would side with power. But how can this idea even be considered given the law? Why churches shouldn’t be granted tax exemption, I understand. But how can Scientology’s tax exemption even be considered (given the law)? ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/7 "2017-11-10T20:17:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he attempts to do this, he will learn what “fighting dirty” _really_ means. Is this why Scientology does not seem (to me at least) to interest people on this board? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/8 "2017-11-10T20:36:09Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Is this why Scientology does not seem (to me at least) to interest people on this board? Wait - are you suggesting that people here don’t post that much about Scientology because we’re afraid of getting sued by them? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/9 "2017-11-10T20:37:10Z")
> [@](#): > > To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates. > **[Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations | Internal Revenue Service](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations)** > > To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and From what I understand, Scientology’s tax exempt status is debatable because: a} some (most?} of its income comes from non church related sources. ie: they hold the copyrights for Hubbard’s science fiction books, b} Originally Hubbard, now Miscavige and their families profit from the church c} They have and support from church funds political action groups. d) they have made specific and fraudulent claims of benefits of participating in Scientology. and there are probably other reasons. mc ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/10 "2017-11-10T20:40:10Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Is this why Scientology does not seem (to me at least) to interest people on this board? A search shows 102 threads (not including this one) with the word “scientology” in the title, plus another 13 with “scientologist.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/11 "2017-11-10T20:48:13Z")
Any Scientologists here have either run away or gone into stealth mode. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/12 "2017-11-10T20:48:20Z")
I’m sorry if I got the wrong impression. I can’t say I’m very active, but I’ve been waiting for a long time for someone else to start a thread on Scientology here. I must have missed those discussions. Anyway, I wonder what people’s opinions are today? Does anyone think tax exemption should be revoked for Scientology? If so, on what grounds? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/13 "2017-11-10T20:49:14Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I’m sorry if I got the wrong impression. I can’t say I’m very active, but I’ve been waiting for a long time for someone else to start a thread on Scientology here. I must have missed those discussions. > > Anyway, I wonder what people’s opinions are today? Does anyone think tax exemption should be revoked for Scientology? If so, on what grounds? See post #9. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/14 "2017-11-10T20:57:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > [https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-section-501c3-organizations](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-section-501c3-organizations) > > From what I understand, Scientology’s tax exempt status is debatable because: > a} some (most?} of its income comes from non church related sources. ie: they hold the copyrights for Hubbard’s science fiction books, > b} Originally Hubbard, now Miscavige and their families profit from the church > c} They have and support from church funds political action groups. > d) they have made specific and fraudulent claims of benefits of participating in Scientology. > > and there are probably other reasons. > > mc Is it possible that Scientology’s status may reflect the possibly real nature of freedom in the USA, where plutocratic groups can thrive at the expense of ordinary citizens? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > See post #9. I was. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/15 "2017-11-10T21:16:28Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Is it possible that Scientology’s status may reflect the possibly real nature of freedom in the USA, where plutocratic groups can thrive at the expense of ordinary citizens? > . . . It may be why Scientology continues to have exempt status, but it’s not how they got it in the first place. [The NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/09/us/scientology-s-puzzling-journey-from-tax-rebel-to-tax-exempt.html) has a good article on what happened: > [@](#): > > On Oct. 8, 1993, 10,000 cheering Scientologists thronged the Los Angeles Sports Arena to celebrate the most important milestone in the church’s recent history: victory in its all-out war against the Internal Revenue Service. > > For 25 years, I.R.S. agents had branded Scientology a commercial enterprise and refused to give it the tax exemption granted to churches. The refusals had been upheld in every court. But that night the crowd learned of an astonishing turnaround. The I.R.S. had granted tax exemptions to every Scientology entity in the United States. . . > > The landmark reversal shocked tax experts and saved the church tens of millions of dollars in taxes. More significantly, the decision was an invaluable public relations tool in Scientology’s worldwide campaign for acceptance as a mainstream religion. On the basis of the I.R.S. ruling, the State Department formally criticized Germany for discriminating against Scientologists. The German Government regards the organization as a business, not a tax-exempt religion, the very position maintained for 25 years by the American Government. > > The full story of the turnabout by the I.R.S. has remained hidden behind taxpayer privacy laws for nearly four years. But an examination by The New York Times found that the exemption followed a series of unusual internal I.R.S. actions that came after an extraordinary campaign orchestrated by Scientology against the agency and people who work there. Among the findings of the review by The Times, based on more than 30 interviews and thousands of pages of public and internal church records, were these: > > \*Scientology’s lawyers hired private investigators to dig into the private lives of I.R.S. officials and to conduct surveillance operations to uncover potential vulnerabilities, according to interviews and documents. One investigator said he had interviewed tenants in buildings owned by three I.R.S. officials, looking for housing code violations. He also said he had taken documents from an I.R.S. conference and sent them to church officials and created a phony news bureau in Washington to gather information on church critics. The church also financed an organization of I.R.S. whistle-blowers that attacked the agency publicly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/16 "2017-11-10T21:30:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he attempts to do this, he will learn what “fighting dirty” _really_ means. When you put it like that, I _want_ him to try. But immigrants will remain his best scapegoats through the near future, no point confusing the base by going after Scientologists. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/17 "2017-11-10T21:32:26Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > Anyway, I wonder what people’s opinions are today? Does anyone think tax exemption should be revoked for Scientology? If so, on what grounds? I think it should be revoked on the grounds that it would be _hilarious_ to establish a precedent of the government reexamining and possibly revoking churches’ non-profit status - which is to say, the government formally stepping up and announcing that, yes, it _does_ have the right and authority to decide whether or not something is a church, whether its members think it is one or not! Depending on what formal grounds it presents in its argument for decertifying Scientology’s religious status, the ruling could cause various other churches (and so-called churches) spontaneously crapping their pants. A determination that their religion isn’t actually a religion could have wide ramifications with regard to what other protections it and its members have - or suddenly _don’t_ have. Fun for all! ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/18 "2017-11-10T21:42:03Z")
You don’t have to make any determination on what is and is not a religion, just whether or not it qualifies for 501©(3) status. There are many tax exempt orgs that are not churches, just as, I’ll be,t there are more than a few churches who don’t qualify as charities. mc ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/19 "2017-11-10T22:40:46Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > You don’t have to make any determination on what is and is not a religion, just whether or not it qualifies for 501(c)(3) status. There are many tax exempt orgs that are not churches, just as, I’ll be,t there are more than a few churches who don’t qualify as charities. > > mc Well, yeah, but given its structure and relationship with money how many options does Scientology have for being tax exempt other than by waving the religion flag? (Note: I know jack-all about tax exempt entities. But seriously, Scientology isn’t a non-profit organization.) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234/20 "2017-11-12T03:15:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (Note: I know jack-all about tax exempt entities. But seriously, Scientology isn’t a non-profit organization.) In what way do you think they differ from, say, the [West Side Christian Church](https://www.wschurch.org/) in Springfield, IL? (I pick that completely at random - I was recently in Springfield, and just did a google search for “Springfield Illinois churches”.) > [@mikecurtis](#): > > From what I understand, Scientology’s tax exempt status is debatable because: > a} some (most?} of its income comes from non church related sources. ie: they hold the copyrights for Hubbard’s science fiction books, > b} Originally Hubbard, now Miscavige and their families profit from the church > c} They have and support from church funds political action groups. > d) they have made specific and fraudulent claims of benefits of participating in Scientology. “From what [you] understand”, could you provide something to back any of those statements up? I’m not a Scientology supporter - I’m a fairly ardent atheist. But the usual “churches should pay taxes!” crowd is pretty heavy around here. a) Why is that an issue? Plenty of non-profits derive income from investments - why would earning income from copyrights be treated any differently? b) How do they profit from the church, outside of earning an income as an officer of the organization? They’re not shareholders - they’re employees. c) First off, non-profits are allowed to be political. They can lobby, they can hire lobbyists, they can organize voter drives, they can canvass, and they can endorse political positions. They are not allowed to endorse candidates. d) I don’t doubt that for a second - but how is that in violation with their 501(c)(3) status? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scientology-and-tax-exemption/801234.md?page=2)