# SCO v. IBM. Does the "v." stand for "versus"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624 "2005-04-16T14:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ShortBus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@ShortBus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShortBus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/1 "2005-04-16T14:05:19Z")
In legal procedings, documents always list _Plantiff_ v. _Defendant_. I remember hearing a while ago that this doesn’t actually stand for “versus” as commonly believed. It’s an abbeviation for a Latin word that just means “and”. However, from my understanding the Latin word for “and” is “_et_”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/2 "2005-04-16T14:39:32Z")
[V. - = versus. (Latin) Against. In the title of a court case reference the name of the plaintiff is put first, followed by the abbreviation “v”, then the defendant’s name.](http://www.lawlib.state.md.us/glossary.html#Legal_Abv) I’ve never heard that it meant anything other than _versus_. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/3 "2005-04-16T14:42:43Z")
Well, FWIW, usually spoken as “Roe and Wade”, not “Roe versus Wade”… of course, then you have _Brown and Green v Inland Revenue_ or somesuch… ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/4 "2005-04-16T14:46:04Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Well, FWIW, usually spoken as “Roe and Wade”, not “Roe versus Wade”… You’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/5 "2005-04-16T14:47:12Z")
I think it is usually spoken as “Roe vee Wade,” not “Roe and Wade.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/6 "2005-04-16T14:47:47Z")
I’ve never heard it called Roe _and_ Wade. Always Roe _vee_ Wade. The vee standing for v. which is the way court decisions are rendered. Other formulations may use vs. for versus instead of v. but they all mean the same thing. And that never is _and_. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/7 "2005-04-16T15:27:33Z")
Huh. It’s different on the other side of the pond, then… It’s always “and” here, never “vee” or “versus”. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/8 "2005-04-16T15:48:34Z")
Lawyer checking in. The “v.” in a case name (or “vs.” sometimes) does stand for versus. In the US, you would say “SCO versus IBM” or “SCO vee IBM”. I would never say “SCO and IBM” because that would make the case name confusing, in that we sometimes refer to a case name only by one name, usually the plaintiff’s/petitioner’s name (i.e., the first listed name, like Brown, Roe, Dred Scott, Korematsu). So saying “SCO and IBM” would mean, “the case of SCO and IBM against someone else.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/9 "2005-04-16T15:57:30Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Huh. It’s different on the other side of the pond, then… It’s always “and” here, never “vee” or “versus”. How about giving us a cite from a UK manual of style or legal text in that case? ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/10 "2005-04-16T16:15:30Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > How about giving us a cite from a UK manual of style or legal text in that case? I’d be interested in that, but I suspect you won’t find one. I suspect that, if accurate, this practice has grown up orally, not in a written tradition, so the only support one could find would be in, say, transcripts of arguments before the court. The written British convention would still read [_Regina v. Dudley and Stephens_](http://www.lawindexpro.co.uk/pub/cCrime1850.shtml) (an infamous case – scroll down to read the blurb), but the pronunciation of the case name may have arisen differently. I’m not sure how one could really cite to that. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/11 "2005-04-16T16:19:17Z")
[Online cite](http://www.sixthform.info/law/01_modules/mod1/10_6_precedent/03_precedent_law_reports.htm) ---
**Author:** ![shefDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@shefDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shefDave)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/12 "2005-04-16T16:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Other abbreviations: > > The ‘v’ in the middle of a case name, whilst literally meaning ‘versus’ should never be pronounced as such. The correct form is to pronounce it as ‘and’ or ‘against’ > > For example; Taylor v Allon is pronounced ‘Taylor and Allon’. > > ‘R’ in the title of a case should usually be pronounced as ‘The Crown’ For example; the case of R v Brown should be pronounced as ‘The Crown against Brown.’ Source: [The DMU Law Society’s Mooting Rules](http://www.dmulawsociety.btinternet.co.uk/mooting/tips_technique/formalities.html) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/13 "2005-04-16T16:32:10Z")
‘England and America are two countries divided by a common language.’ ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/14 "2005-04-16T16:55:05Z")
That’s interesting. And **Tabby\_Cat** ’s cite indicates a distinction in the pronunciation between civil and criminal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/15 "2005-04-16T16:57:13Z")
IANAL, but I have a law degree. “V” is pronounced “and” in Australia, NZ and the UK (and possibly elsewhere in the Commonwealth). ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/16 "2005-04-16T17:03:56Z")
\ I must say, though, that as a student, I always refered to the criminal cases as “Ar Vee Brown”, or “Ar Vee Wilson”, and the professors never once said “The Crown against X” or even “Regina and McNaghten”, it was always “Ar Vee” for criminal cases… After all, all criminal cases are R v something or other, and it gets pretty old to keep saying “The Crown” this or “The Crown” that. I also never knew that only ships were to be refered to in that manner. I guess things are changing a bit now, since in some judgments now refer to “Vallambrosa Rubber”, or “Anaconda Brass”, instead of “Vallambrosa Rubber v Inland Revenue Commissioners”. \ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/17 "2005-04-16T17:57:18Z")
Thanks for the cite. Always something new to learn about the preposterous provincial ways of the country we left in our dust. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/18 "2005-04-16T18:01:08Z")
Do I understand correctly that _Smith v. Brown and Jones_ is to be pronounced “Smith and Brown and Jones” ? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/19 "2005-04-16T18:18:08Z")
Well… yes. [sub]sigh[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![shefDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@shefDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shefDave)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624/20 "2005-04-16T18:20:01Z")
Yes, you could also say “Smith _against_ Brown and Jones”, but according to **Tabby\_Cat’s** cite ‘against’ is used for criminal cases, not a civil case such as _‘Smith v. Brown and Jones’_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sco-v-ibm-does-the-v-stand-for-versus/299624.md?page=2)