# Scooter: G-U-I-L-T-Y **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820 "2007-03-06T17:13:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/21 "2007-03-06T20:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Slight sidetracking - Last week, one of the jurors was removed from the case, because she had seen something about the case outside the courtroom. The case went on with 11 jurors. Why wasn’t one of the alternate jurors substutued in? Isn’t that why they are there? A decision was made by the judge not to call in one of the alternate jurors, both (?) of whom had been excused with instructions not to follow the case in the media. Under the rules, it’s within the judge’s discretion. The defense was okay with it and the prosecution objected. **Cisco:** I think that’s specious reasoning. If there’s no likelihood of a pardon, wouldn’t he be more inclined to cut a deal with the government for a reduced or suspended sentence in exchange for his assistance with other matters? [Disclaimer: no inside knowledge about this particular issue at all] ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/22 "2007-03-06T20:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > If that fails, they will appeal. I’m also curious to hear what colorable grounds for appeal people think the defendant has. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/23 "2007-03-06T20:57:11Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] A decision was made by the judge not to call in one of the alternate jurors, both (?) of whom had been excused with instructions not to follow the case in the media. Under the rules, it’s within the judge’s discretion. The defense was okay with it and the prosecution objected. [/QUOTE] Also, had they put in one of the alternate jurors, the jury would’ve had to restart deliberations from the beginning. I guess the defense decided it was a better trade-off to just keep going as is. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/24 "2007-03-06T21:01:26Z")
[QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] Libby’s lawyer has already said that they are going to push to have a new trial. If that fails, they will appeal. [/QUOTE] That’s a predictable next step. At worst, it buys time and allows the defense to develop additional grounds for appeal. At best, he gets a new trial. > [@](#): > > What’s to stop: > Keeping that going until, say, November of 2008 shouldn’t be hard. Then a late night, no fanfare, pardon. With the short attention span of the US news, a lame duck president, and the flurry of a new incoming president, I don’t think that there would be much of an uproar. Maybe a short spat of indignation from parts of the media, but that’s about it. I think Bush and associates want to distance themselves from the whole scandal. The best way to do that is to leave him to fend for himself. Plus, minimizing Libby’s infraction would open old wounds from the Clinton impeachment. > [@](#): > > Slight sidetracking - Last week, one of the jurors was removed from the case, because she had seen something about the case outside the courtroom. The case went on with 11 jurors. Why wasn’t one of the alternate jurors substutued in? Isn’t that why they are there? > [@](#): > > The judge let the jurors continue deliberating with just 11 members after the defense endorsed that option. > > He overruled prosecutors who asked him to seat one of two alternate jurors who heard the trial and remain on standby. > > Walton said he didn’t want to “throw away two and a half days” of discussions the jury has had since getting the case at midday last Wednesday. > > If an alternate had been seated, the jury would have been required to begin its deliberations over from the beginning. [http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/26/cia.leak.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/26/cia.leak.ap/index.html) [QUOTE=Gadarene] I’m also curious to hear what colorable grounds for appeal people think the defendant has. [/QUOTE] Didn’t follow the case, but I’m sure there were disputes about jury instructions (there always are) and contested evidentiary rulings. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/25 "2007-03-06T21:03:08Z")
Considering the Bizzaro world logic that works in this White House, I’m surprised Libby and his attorneys didn’t delclare this a great victory! I’ll have to agree that they’ll drag this out through the Supreme Court by which time the election will be over and Dick Cheney’s little buddy will pardon him for any crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/26 "2007-03-06T21:04:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t follow the case, but I’m sure there were disputes about jury instructions (there always are) and contested evidentiary rulings. Not many. At least not once they got past CIPA. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/27 "2007-03-06T21:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Not many. At least not once they got past CIPA. [/QUOTE] I’m not saying I think he’ll win (I don’t), but it only takes one: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/31/AR2005053100491.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/31/AR2005053100491.html) 😃 There’s also the general sufficiency of the evidence argument, bolstered by the jury’s note, perhaps. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030200406.html?nav=rss\_print/asection](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030200406.html?nav=rss_print/asection) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/28 "2007-03-06T21:19:41Z")
I have confidence that this judge left the least possible room for a finding of reversible error. 🙂 Although we’ll see, of course. What do you think that note shows one way or the other about the sufficiency of the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/29 "2007-03-06T21:29:47Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] What do you think that note shows one way or the other about the sufficiency of the evidence? [/QUOTE] Me? Nothing specific. I think you could make arguments both ways based on it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/30 "2007-03-06T21:34:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Me? Nothing specific. I think you could make arguments both ways based on it. You’re smarter than me, because I don’t necessarily see it. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/31 "2007-03-06T21:41:30Z")
I’m not gonna participate in the wagering on this one, but I do think there will be a pardon for Libby before Shrub leaves office, assuming the appeals fail. As I see it, the heel here is Cheney. Libby is a company man, and took the fall for Cheney. Bush rewards that loyalty after the election, sometime before ordering the staff to remove all of the "R"s from the keyboards…(which would be fun irony, and almost worth enduring a Hillary presidency in and of itself. Almost.) ---
**Author:** ![i\_am\_a\_scientist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@i\_am\_a\_scientist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/i_am_a_scientist)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/32 "2007-03-06T21:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’ll post that once I’ve closed on whether the bet is on or not with the OP and anyone else who wants in. [/QUOTE] Let’s do it, Mace! ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/33 "2007-03-06T22:11:36Z")
I have nothing to add except that I love how NPR has assigned [Libby Lewis](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4810919) to report on this story. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/34 "2007-03-06T23:11:33Z")
Well, boys, there you have it. It is now official: _this Administration lies_. I find it intriguing that one of the jurors said that some of the jurors had a hard time with having to declare a Bush employee guilty. Sounds like they favor the administration, but found themselves compelled by the evidence to vote guilty. Given how long it took them, want to bet the jury talked about a lot more than the evidence before them? ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/35 "2007-03-06T23:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] A decision was made by the judge not to call in one of the alternate jurors, both (?) of whom had been excused with instructions not to follow the case in the media. Under the rules, it’s within the judge’s discretion. The defense was okay with it and the prosecution objected. [/QUOTE] Even though the defense said it was ok with proceeding with just 11 jurors, would they be able to use this as a reason to press for a retrial? Or does agreeing to continue, short a juror, close that path? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/36 "2007-03-06T23:22:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Even though the defense said it was ok with proceeding with just 11 jurors, would they be able to use this as a reason to press for a retrial? Or does agreeing to continue, short a juror, close that path? I think the latter. > [@](#): > > Given how long it took them, want to bet the jury talked about a lot more than the evidence before them? That conclusion does a profound disservice to the jury, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/37 "2007-03-06T23:54:10Z")
[QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] Even though the defense said it was ok with proceeding with just 11 jurors, would they be able to use this as a reason to press for a retrial? Or does agreeing to continue, short a juror, close that path? [/QUOTE] It sounds like the defense suggested (it says “endorsed” in the article) going forward with 11 jurors. That subjects it to review (or lack of review) as invited error: “If a defendant invites error by the district court, he is “barred from complaining about it on appeal.”” [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=DC&navby=case&no=993113A](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=DC&navby=case&no=993113A) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/38 "2007-03-07T00:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] That conclusion does a profound disservice to the jury, IMHO. [/QUOTE] Indeed! I suggest reading [CNN’s article](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/06/libby.juror/index.html) about the jury’s deliberations. It left me with renewed respect for the citizens who take on such a vital and difficult burden. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/39 "2007-03-07T00:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=BJMoose] Given how long it took them, want to bet the jury talked about a lot more than the evidence before them? [/QUOTE] You honestly want to make such a sucker bet? [ > [@](#): > > Collins also opened up about the nuts and bolts of the decision-making process. He said at one point jurors were using 35 Post-It pages that measured 2½ feet by 2 feet to help them break down the testimony. **"We took about a week just to get all the building blocks there** ," Collins said. > > “There were some incredibly good managerial-type people who just took everything apart in to the smallest piece, put it in the right places, and it got to the point where opinion had very little to do with it,” said Collins. "You just came to this conclusion that, ‘wow here it is, right before us.’ " > > Collins said among their key points of deliberation were: motivation to tell the truth, motivation to lie, believability and state of mind. > > “So we didn’t do a straw vote right away,” he said. **“It was too big. It was too much. It was too important. We just didn’t do that. So that’s why it took so long.”** ]([Juror: Libby is guilty, but he was fall guy - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/06/libby.juror/index.html)) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820/40 "2007-03-07T00:32:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’ll post that once I’ve closed on whether the bet is on or not with the OP and anyone else who wants in. [/QUOTE] I’m not speaking as a mod here, but I’m not comfortable with this. It doesn’t seem like you’re fairly participating in the discussion here. My view is that it is hardly unknown for presidents to issue a metric boatload of pardons on the way out of the Oval Office. Given Bush’s tremendous sense of loyalty to his minions, and the fact that Libby is taking one for the team, I view it as at least 75% probable that he gets one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scooter-g-u-i-l-t-y/394820.md?page=3)