# Score one for the Atheists - US Courts Rule Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093 "2002-06-26T19:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/1 "2002-06-26T19:45:36Z")
Visit [www.cnn.com](http://www.cnn.com) IMHO, I am glad to get the government out of the business of God/god/gods. 'bout time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/2 "2002-06-26T19:49:45Z")
They’re bitching about it at work right now. I’m laughing. Not too loud (offended too many people during my last outbreak over Jon Edwards…)… Excellent. I’m happy. Never could remember the damn thing anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/3 "2002-06-26T20:30:34Z")
William F. Buckley said once that atheism has its own gods, and they are worshipped vigorously. Here’s proof of that. Flame away. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Simetra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Simetra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simetra)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/4 "2002-06-26T20:32:25Z")
\ Why they can’t just politely omit the line is beyond me. We do it with The Oath. It’s your option whether or not you want to say “So help me g-d” at the end or not. Seems that solution would 'cause a lot less trouble. I guess this means our currency is “unconstitutional” since it says “In G-d We Trust” on the back. Maybe those of you who are so violently opposed to making a pledge to a country that you are a citizen of and that provides for you would like to give that money to someone else. Someone who doesn’t think it’s an affront to those who don’t believe in a supreme being if something says G-d/g-d in it somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/5 "2002-06-26T20:40:19Z")
Thank God I’m an atheist. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/6 "2002-06-26T20:43:38Z")
While I, too, am glad that the damn thing’s been done away with, I have a slight nitpick about the thread title–it assumes that the only Americans who have an issue with “Under God” are athiests. I for one am NOT an athiest, but I have issues with it, because it ignores any theists whose deity of choice is NOT “God”. What of the Buddhists? What of the Muslims? What of the Cult of the Smoking Head of Bob? ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/7 "2002-06-26T20:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Simetra \* > \ Why they can’t just politely omit the line is beyond me. We do it with The Oath. It’s your option whether or not you want to say “So help me g-d” at the end or not. Seems that solution would 'cause a lot less trouble. Why should I have to listen to everyone around me chanting about God in supposedly secular settings? Why should elementary school children have to decide whether they are going to go along with the class and say the God part, or if they are going to be the odd man out and leave it out? > [@](#): > > I guess this means our currency is “unconstitutional” since it says “In G-d We Trust” on the back. Indeed, many citizens in favor of seperation of church and state would (and do) argue just that. > [@](#): > > Maybe those of you who are so violently opposed to making a pledge to a country that you are a citizen of and that provides for you would like to give that money to someone else. Is anyone in this thread objecting to saying the Pledge? Or, in your mind, is it not the Pledge without those two magical words? If that’s what you think, what about all the people who said the Pledge of Allegiance before 1954? And, yeah, if you’re not jumping with joy about entanglement between our government and religion, you shouldn’t have access to currency. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/8 "2002-06-26T21:02:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Podkayne \* > \*\* > > Why should I have to listen to everyone around me chanting about God in supposedly secular settings? > > Why should elementary school children have to decide whether they are going to go along with the class and say the God part, or if they are going to be the odd man out and leave it out? > \*\* Um…whoosh? He isn’t suggesting that individuals omit “under God,” he’s suggesting that we (as in the entire country) constitutionally omit “under God.” ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/9 "2002-06-26T21:04:19Z")
I’m not glad. IMHO we’ve just lost yet another mythological construct and **not replaced it with something else**. In another 100 years I think we’ll all be cynical drones with no myths, no customs, no traditions, and therefore no past or future. But then, that is just my humble opinion. I’ll also be dead by then. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/10 "2002-06-26T21:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\* > > Um…whoosh? > > He isn’t suggesting that individuals omit “under God,” he’s suggesting that we (as in the entire country) constitutionally omit “under God.” \*\* Whoosh right back atchya, pal. According to the Constitution, the govenment is forbidden to make any statement about God (pro or con). So yeah, the entire nation _should_ “constitutionally” omit “under God”. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/11 "2002-06-26T21:40:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*I’m not glad. IMHO we’ve just lost yet another mythological construct and **not replaced it with something else**. In another 100 years I think we’ll all be cynical drones with no myths, no customs, no traditions, and therefore no past or future. > > But then, that is just my humble opinion. I’ll also be dead by then. 😃 \*\* In another 100 years? But the PoA hasn’t been around for the first 100 years. It’s hard to say that we’re destroying history when we haven’t even officially been saying the pledge for 60 years. Hell, slavery and segregation were much older than the pledge is, do you think it not a good idea that we got rid of those? And by the way, we haven’t gotten rid of the pledge just yet. SCOTUS hasn’t heard the case, and it doesn’t suggest getting rid of the pledge - just “under God”. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/12 "2002-06-26T21:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kamandi \* > \*\* > > Whoosh right back atchya, pal. > > According to the Constitution, the govenment is forbidden to make any statement about God (pro or con). So yeah, the entire nation _should_ “constitutionally” omit “under God”. That’s the point. \*\* Correct. You’ve just repeated what I was saying. It seemed to me that Podkayne misinterpretted Simetra’s line of “why can’t they just omit [‘under God’]” as they=individual students in a classroom vs. they=government. So, um, whoosh on you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/13 "2002-06-26T21:50:09Z")
I’m pretty happy about this, not because I want to stick it to the Christians but because I really think it’s the right decision. No state-employed teachers in state-run schools should teach our children that we are “under God.” My wife grew up reciting religious nonsense in her school. She’s from Iran. The freedom to not believe makes America great! Does this endanger the “In God We Trust” motto on our currency? Sure. I’ve never understood why Christians wanted that on there anyway. Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser’s… But that’s another issue. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/14 "2002-06-26T21:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\* > > Hell, slavery and segregation were much older than the pledge is, do you think it not a good idea that we got rid of those?\*\* Oh dear, I had a feeling it would come to this, distorting my opinion by comparing it with abominable practices. Would this be considered a strawman? Yes, **Munch** , it was a good idea to get rid of slavery. Yes, **Munch** , it was a good idea to get rid of segregation. Not all customs are good, and that is why customs change, as well as traditions and myths. The problem that I see is that this country is losing more customs, traditions, and myths than we are producing. > [@](#): > > \*\*And by the way, we haven’t gotten rid of the pledge just yet. SCOTUS hasn’t heard the case, and it doesn’t suggest getting rid of the pledge - just “under God”. \*\* I certainly hope that will be the case, but I’m beginning to doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/15 "2002-06-26T22:05:14Z")
Okay, my post smacks a bit of strawmanship. But the fact remains that while the pledge is a wonderful mythological contruct to some ( :rolleyes: ), it is also offensive, insensitive and unconstitutional to others. But still, the pledge is not gone, and the current ruling doesn’t take effect in the 9 states it encompasses for another 7 months. That’s _plenty_ of time to replace the entire pledge with an “under God”-free version. Which still isn’t necessary, as the ruling only affects the 50s law that instated “under God” and not the 40s law that instated the entire pledge. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/16 "2002-06-26T22:06:32Z")
One more thing: Once again, this is just **my opinion**. In no way, shape or form am I trying to change your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/17 "2002-06-26T22:07:01Z")
As an atheist, I don’t like this business one bit. Suing a school district (IIRC) over this makes us (atheists) look weak and whiny. I do think the gov’t would be better off not being in the God business. But has this decision helped or hurt the cause of atheism? Will your life, Mr. or Ms. Atheist (or polytheist), really be better off now that kids don’t have the PoA? Not really. Will we will look like P.C. crybabies who run to a lawer whenever we don’t get our way? Does that help us? I would rather be looked upon as I look upon us–as strong people who are able to shrug off popular conceptions, think critically, and toss aside the slights with a knowing smile. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/18 "2002-06-26T22:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > **Okay, my post smacks a bit of strawmanship. But the fact remains that while the pledge is a wonderful mythological contruct to some ( :rolleyes: )** I had no idea you thought of the pledge as a **wonderful** mythological construct. I wouldn’t have gone that far. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/19 "2002-06-26T22:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\* > > Correct. You’ve just repeated what I was saying. It seemed to me that Podkayne misinterpretted Simetra’s line of “why can’t they just omit [‘under God’]” as they=individual students in a classroom vs. they=government. > > So, um, whoosh on you. 😉 \*\* Man, I am so confused. :o ---
**Author:** ![Kamandi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@Kamandi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamandi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093/20 "2002-06-26T22:12:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\* > > Correct. You’ve just repeated what I was saying. It seemed to me that Podkayne misinterpretted Simetra’s line of “why can’t they just omit [‘under God’]” as they=individual students in a classroom vs. they=government. > > So, um, whoosh on you. 😉 \*\* Man, I am so confused. :smack: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/score-one-for-the-atheists-us-courts-rule-pledge-of-allegiance-unconstitutional/116093.md?page=2)