# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/321 "2015-11-14T18:04:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What will be smooth? What do you propose to accomplish a ban on Islam? He is too shy to say it, but we can understand the model in mind is his country [current](http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2015/01/13/echoes-india%E2%80%99s-violent-sectarian-past)[developments](http://www.thenational.scot/world/india-anger-grows-at-home-while-modi-pays-visit-to-the-uk.9937)… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/322 "2015-11-14T18:10:00Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Yeah, it is pretty early here. 3:47 AM right now…but I’ve been up all night and not even been to sleep yet, so it’s more like I should be having my nightly hot chocolate instead. > > And to keep on track with the topic: I’ve been following this on news sites and TV since it happened. Crazy stuff. That’s a bit of an understatement, but I’m still at a loss for words why people would do these kinds of things. People act according to their belief systems and not all belief systems are identical. This group, or allied groups, believes it’s religiously justified to crucify and torture children of a slightly different brand of their own religion. What do you think is appropriate behavior in their eyes to send a message to true heathens? They probably think they are being merciful using methods that kill quick. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/323 "2015-11-14T18:11:04Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yazidi, the various Christian sects, some of which only survived in the Iraq as they were suppressed by the Byzantines, the Zoroastrians, etc. > > And this is the Iraq. > > Since you do not know the history, try not to comment on it. You mean other people of the book for the most part. 😉 And christian sects arent ancient religions of the area. What do you think happened to those who rejected Islam/Christianity to continue worshiping their pagan gods? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/324 "2015-11-14T18:13:39Z")
anyone with some plausible idea of being monotheist. different than what the Christians did, suppressing even other forms of Christianity from that of the ruler. your implication you should admit was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/325 "2015-11-14T18:15:18Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > anyone with some plausible idea of being monotheist. > > different than what the Christians did, suppressing even other forms of Christianity from that of the ruler. U mean like that sunni/shia supressfest? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/326 "2015-11-14T18:17:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > U mean like that sunni/shia supressfest? What fiction history are you thinking of? even in the Saudi arabia there are the Shia… ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/327 "2015-11-14T18:20:55Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What fiction history are you thinking of? > > even in the Saudi arabia there are the Shia… How many people are practising a pre-Islamic religion in SA? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/328 "2015-11-14T18:27:37Z")
So you are trying to hide your embarrassing ignorance by shifting the goal posts to focus on the Saudi lands of Wahhabism? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/329 "2015-11-14T18:36:24Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > So you are trying to hide your embarrassing ignorance by shifting the goal posts to focus on the Saudi lands of Wahhabism? Lol…please try keeping up. ITD posted that its hard to suppress destroy religions when almost all of the pre Islamic and Christian religions have been successfully suppressed. Islam didnt spread like wildfire by its adherents asking its christian/jewish/pagan conquered nicely to convert. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/330 "2015-11-14T18:59:43Z")
That is not what I posted. I was responding to the assertion that if we banned Islam, the adherents would simply stop practicing. It was that idea that has never worked well. I clarified up thread. Post #315 It was this post I quoted and responded to. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18859129&postcount=298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18859129&postcount=298) ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/331 "2015-11-14T19:06:43Z")
I believe this thread has drifted far enough from the OP to no longer be MPSIMS material. There is enough substance here to move to Great Debates. **Everyone note forum change** Please adjust your posting style to be GD appropriate. I’d like to avoid an eventual move to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/332 "2015-11-14T19:16:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Lol…please try keeping up. ITD posted that its hard to suppress destroy religions when almost all of the pre Islamic and Christian religions have been successfully suppressed. “lol”? Are we now teenagers? I suppose the level of thinking is matching that. in fact “all of the pre Islamic and Christian religions have been successfully suppressed” is false. > [@](#): > > Islam didnt spread like wildfire by its adherents asking its christian/jewish/pagan conquered nicely to convert. You are grossly ignorant of the history of the Islam and writing childish things. The conquests never asked for conversion, in fact for centuries and centuries it was discouraged - the elites preferred the tax system… as an economist I am not surprised that the economical interests was useful in supporting the theoretical injunction of “no complusion in the religion.” (of course here we are looking at the Middle East, in the southeast asia and the sub-saharan Africa the conversion and penetration mostly happened from the conversion around the muslim traders, that is no conquest at all) it is only in the middle ages, many centuries after the coming of the Islamic rule that the records anywhere in the middle east show a majority of the population starting to convert, slowly drip drip - five, six, seven hundred years after the conquests. the suppression of the Pagan religions on the Middle East was already done by the Christians before the Muslim rule, so they did not have any opportunity there. In the south Asia they did and there even with centuries of rule they did not suppress, even in the Afghanistan there remained the pagan populations unconverted even into the 20e century (although now gone). we compare this to the Christians in Europe and their bloody suppression of all other religions and even other versions of the Christianity up to even the 1700s. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/333 "2015-11-14T19:36:07Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That is not what I posted. > > I was responding to the assertion that if we banned Islam, the adherents would simply stop practicing. It was that idea that has never worked well. > > I clarified up thread. Post #315 > > It was this post I quoted and responded to. [Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=775114) Apologies for misreading. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/334 "2015-11-14T19:45:14Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > Is their any explanation why there was an error? Sensational Journalism? One of the lessons from my military experience on staffs in command posts is “the first report is always wrong.” It may even be overwhelmingly right but there’s always at least elements that are unclear, vague, or overstated. Sometimes there are elements that are blatantly untrue. You have to verify important information to support good analysis and decision making. To the first responders in the midst of dealing with the attack and it’s immediate aftermath, death totals are one of the least important numbers to manage. There’s nothing time sensitive to be done for those already dead. There is information that is absolutely critical at that point to minimizing further loss of life and responding to the attackers. The dead can wait. The media has a hard time waiting, though. In this thread we see more “complete” data being a sign of better coverage. There’s pressure to report early. It’s what their audience wants to know. They don’t have much capability to verify reports and still be timely. There’s not a lot of options for independent verification beyond taking the reports from the best official source available (which is likely wrong in aspects.) The disconnect between what the responders **need** to know and what the media **wants** to know makes the issue of first reports even more difficult. In some ways it’s amazing that the media is as accurate as they usually manage to be. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/335 "2015-11-14T19:58:16Z")
The Syrian refugees are a desperate and desolated people, and we shouldn’t help them because we are afraid? Since when does a velociraptor cringe from a chihuahua? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/336 "2015-11-14T20:00:03Z")
The statement by French President Francois Hollande that the attacks were “an act of war” has deeper implications. Article 5 of the NATO Charter states that an attack on one ally shall be considered an attack on all allies. NATO invoked this Article for the first time in its history following the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the United States. Although the attacks of 2001 and 2015 were different in scale, there are clear parallels between them. We shall have to see what transpires in the next few days, but the declaration of war by all NATO states against ISIL is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/337 "2015-11-14T20:36:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Syrian refugees are a desperate and desolated people, and we shouldn’t help them because we are afraid? Since when does a velociraptor cringe from a chihuahua? Since when do velociraptors help refugees? ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/338 "2015-11-14T20:36:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Syrian refugees are a desperate and desolated people, and we shouldn’t help them because we are afraid? Since when does a velociraptor cringe from a chihuahua? Exactly. The perpetrators of this attack want us to be afraid, want us to do things like ban Islam and refuse refugees. To abandon our values and become like them. It’s ok to be afraid, but it’s not ok to abandon what makes us better than the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/339 "2015-11-14T20:44:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Since when do velociraptors help refugees? A feature of a new Jurassic movie. They will also be Born Agains. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/340 "2015-11-14T20:47:11Z")
Ladies and Gentlemen- This thread is not about who’s more oppressed. It’s about the events in Paris. The hijack is concluded. Should you feel a need to continue arguing about Islam/Christendom and so forth, we already have a perfectly good thread in Great Debates that will allow you to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=18)