# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/341 "2015-11-14T21:01:23Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > The statement by French President Francois Hollande that the attacks were “an act of war” has deeper implications. Article 5 of the NATO Charter states that an attack on one ally shall be considered an attack on all allies. Good catch on the Article 5 implications. Not that Article 5 specifies the form of assistance offered, but it’s a lever to be pulled in seeking the kinds of assistance France asks for. It will be interesting to see what comes out of Brussels in the next few days in response. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/342 "2015-11-14T21:22:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Ladies and Gentlemen- > > This thread is not about who’s more oppressed. It’s about the events in Paris. The hijack is concluded. I think at this point, the hijack has taken over completely. But I did learn that France is part of NATO again. I missed that they rejoined in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/343 "2015-11-14T22:46:57Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Actually, it was very successful. How many ancient religions survive in Muslim or Christian lands? Not that it would succeed today in a digital world. Uh, there are lots of religious groups in much of the Middle East and Central Asia that predate Islam and have done fine, though things have gotten rough for many with the recent turmoil. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/344 "2015-11-14T22:54:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Lol. A belief system of nutty fairy tales is not a race so calm down and leave that poor straw man and worn out RaceCardtm alone. Funny thing is, you quoted and responded to the post in which I address this BEFORE this one. You and others insist oh, no, it’s just about religion, when practically, it’ll be all about race. I’m gonna guess that, just like after 9/11, there will be at least one assault against a brown skinned person in France who does not practice the religion of Islam. After all, when people talk about profiling Muslims, I never hear of them mentioning interrogating anyone about their religion first, so on what basis will the profiling happen, hmm? Again, watch proposals coming out of France, including non official. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/345 "2015-11-14T23:12:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I’m gonna guess that, just like after 9/11, there will be at least one assault against a brown skinned person in France who does not practice the religion of Islam. After all, when people talk about profiling Muslims, I never hear of them mentioning interrogating anyone about their religion first, so on what basis will the profiling happen, hmm? To the best of my knowledge, the only person killed in the U.S. after 9-11 for being Muslim was a Sikh. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/346 "2015-11-14T23:24:35Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > To the best of my knowledge, the only person killed in the U.S. after 9-11 for being Muslim was a Sikh. Not long ago, some woman in the US pushed an Indian or Indian-American in front of a train because she believed he was Hindu and, according to her, “Muslims _and Hindus_ carried out the 9/11 attacks”. Of course, her only evidence of the man being Hindu was the color of his skin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/347 "2015-11-14T23:45:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > And yet, if you read the economic analysts who are discussing world oil prices, it’s [precisely](http://www.theweek.co.uk/oil-price/60838/oil-price-traders-blindsided-as-oil-inventories-build-towards-80-year-high)what is happening.andAnd from a [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/energy-environment/oil-prices.html)from about six weeks ago:These are all recent articles, but this issue of OPEC countries continuing to pump oil in order to drive down prices and maintain global market share has been discussed in the financial press consistently over the course of this year. uh huh. They’re losing their ass on oil in an attempt to drive people out of business? Do you think the oil goes away if the pump is shut off? They’re pumping more oil because the price is at 1970 prices and they would lose billions in revenue if they didn’t. There is nothing they can do to reduce our reserves. As long as the reserves exist and the wells are tapped then they can’t jack the price up by limiting their production. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/348 "2015-11-14T23:46:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not long ago, some woman in the US pushed an Indian or Indian-American in front of a train because she believed he was Hindu and, according to her, “Muslims _and Hindus_ carried out the 9/11 attacks”. Of course, her only evidence of the man being Hindu was the color of his skin. Sorry, im not completely buying this. The woman was obviously as nutty as a fruit cake. From what I have read there was a whole lot of mental health issues going on in that woman. Sure, blame it partly on intolerant racism, but you cant completely ignore her mental instability either. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/349 "2015-11-14T23:51:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not long ago, some woman in the US pushed an Indian or Indian-American in front of a train because she believed he was Hindu and, according to her, “Muslims _and Hindus_ carried out the 9/11 attacks”. Of course, her only evidence of the man being Hindu was the color of his skin. Well all righty then, well just put a “1” in that column. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/350 "2015-11-14T23:57:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Funny thing is, you quoted and responded to the post in which I address this BEFORE this one. > > You and others insist oh, no, it’s just about religion, when practically, it’ll be all about race. I’m gonna guess that, just like after 9/11, there will be at least one assault against a brown skinned person in France who does not practice the religion of Islam. After all, when people talk about profiling Muslims, I never hear of them mentioning interrogating anyone about their religion first, so on what basis will the profiling happen, hmm? Again, watch proposals coming out of France, including non official. So? That proves nothing other than someone is being ignorant. It’s not ignorant to attack a dangerous ideology and it’s fervent zealots. The fact that you cannot separate skin color and ideology is on you. The fact that you are more worried about some racist bogeyman instead of acts committed because of religious indoctrination is worrisome. France, Europe, the US are far more tolerant and far more accepting of different religions than the lands in which Islam is the belief system of the majority. The problem is a dangerous ideology and nations have every right and some may say duty to take steps to mitigate dangers to their culture and their people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/351 "2015-11-14T23:59:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not long ago, some woman in the US pushed an Indian or Indian-American in front of a train because she believed he was Hindu and, according to her, “Muslims _and Hindus_ carried out the 9/11 attacks”. Of course, her only evidence of the man being Hindu was the color of his skin. Monty, that woman was mentally ill: > [@](#): > > ‘I’m not mad about the people. I’m mad because I liked the buildings,’ Menendez said. ‘I just wanted to hurt Muslims and Hindus ever since (9/11).’ > She loved the World Trade Center buildings because she is a native New Yorker, she said. > > She hardly showed emotion during the interview, The Post reported, but her eyes lit up when she began describing other attacks on people she believed were Muslim or Hindu. > > ‘I’ve been beating up Muslims and Hindus for a long time. I just want to hurt them. I would punch them,’ she said. > > She told The Post that on December 29, Sen stood out from the other subway riders because of his religion but the horrific death may have been averted if she’d taken her medicine. > > The mentally ill woman revealed to The Post that she hadn’t taken her drugs that day because she hates the side effects, which make her ‘shaky.’ I do not believe it’s fair to support your thesis (as I understand your thesis) with this example. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/352 "2015-11-15T00:15:30Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Best thing by USA would be to ban Islam. USA is the most powerful nation - 22-23% of world’s GDP, most powerful army, greatest soft-power. Geographically safely located(separated by oceans) and still has relatively low Islamic population percentage. > > So if USA bans Islam inside USA, it would send a great and a powerful message to the world. Sure, because tearing up the constitution and Bill of Rights, the foundation of our nation, is a GREAT idea. It is contrary to the constitution of the US to ban a religion. You can restrict religious _practices_ - but only in very, very limited circumstances. And we’re NOT “geography safely located (separated by oceans)” as 9/11 proved. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/353 "2015-11-15T00:17:18Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > It is correct that USA’s Muslim population is not greatly expected to cause great damage as long as it is low. Ban just Islam (Face covering, mosques, halal , sharia and other objectionable stuff). People who want to come to USA will tacitly denounce it to come to USA. Um… WTF is offensive about halal? Will you ban kosher foods next? > [@](#): > > It will send a powerful message. Yeah. It will send the message Americans are hypocritical dicks. No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/354 "2015-11-15T00:19:11Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > When I went to bed last night, the death toll was over at (or greater than) 150 on all the networks I saw (ABC, NBC, CNN, and FOX). > > Just tuned into CNN and they are now saying 128 dead. > > Is their any explanation why there was an error? Sensational Journalism? Uh… maybe they were more interested in saving lives at the moment then carefully tallying the dead? Confusion due to the chaos created by the attacks? It is nothing at all for death tolls to be revised the next day, either up or down, after an event resulting in mass fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/355 "2015-11-15T00:22:30Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Actually, it was very successful. How many ancient religions survive in Muslim or Christian lands? Not that it would succeed today in a digital world. Well, let’s see - in the “Muslims” MENA we have Judaism, Christianity, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, Ba’hai, Sufis, and in northern Africa enduring outposts of animism. That’s just the ones I know about, there are likely more. So… not very successful. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/356 "2015-11-15T00:27:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The fact that you cannot separate skin color and ideology is on you. And as I said in the first post you responded to, if there were any whisper of movement against Caucasian practitioners of Islam, or of verifying religion in any way before handcuffing the brown dude out of panic, you might have a point. > [@](#): > > The fact that you are more worried about some racist bogeyman instead of acts committed because of religious indoctrination is worrisome. Funny, I find worrisome the fact that you’re so terrified (hah) of relatively rare acts of murder that you’re willing to throw anyone who looks different than you under the bus in violation of everything this country stands for. > [@](#): > > The problem is a dangerous ideology and nations have every right and some may say duty to take steps to mitigate dangers to their culture and their people. Ah, yes, the culture wars. This is what it’s really about: assimilation and doing away with those pesky cultural differences. Okay, fine. Please list exactly what steps you think the U.S. government and military should take in response to this event, both domestically and abroad. No more euphemisms or pussyfooting; let your ideas be known. If you believe as **truthSeeker2** does, say it loud and proud. I’ll have more respect for you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/357 "2015-11-15T00:33:09Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > And as I said in the first post you responded to, if there were any whisper of movement against Caucasian practitioners of Islam, or of verifying religion in any way before handcuffing the brown dude out of panic, you might have a point. > > Funny, I find worrisome the fact that you’re so terrified (hah) of relatively rare acts of murder that you’re willing to throw anyone who looks different than you under the bus in violation of everything this country stands for. > > Ah, yes, the culture wars. This is what it’s really about: assimilation and doing away with those pesky cultural differences. > > Okay, fine. Please list exactly what steps you think the U.S. government and military should take in response to this event, both domestically and abroad. No more euphemisms or pussyfooting; let your ideas be known. If you believe as **truthSeeker2** does, say it loud and proud. I’ll have more respect for you. You are making stuff up. I’m not wanting to throw anyone who looks different than me anywhere. I care about ideology. Stop putting words in my mouth. What to do with the US military? Where have I mentioned a military response? Reread what I wrote. It’s in English. And if you don’t see how a rigorous interpretation of Islam and classical liberal thought are at fundamental odds that’s just willful ignorance on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/358 "2015-11-15T00:39:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You are making stuff up. I’m not wanting to throw anyone who looks different than me anywhere. I care about ideology. Stop putting words in my mouth. > > What to do with the US military? Where have I mentioned a military response? Reread what I wrote. It’s in English. That’s why I _asked_ to begin with. You didn’t mention a military response as far as I saw, so I had no idea what you thought of it. So I asked. And I made assumptions about bus throwing, perhaps unwarranted, because of your going on and on about the cultural superiority of the West. So again, if you don’t want me making those assumptions, with all this talk about how evil Islam is and how America needs to be protected from it, what do you want to DO about it? If I missed a post, feel free to link. > [@](#): > > And if you don’t see how a rigorous interpretation of Islam and classical liberal thought are at fundamental odds that’s just willful ignorance on your part. Again, I ask because I don’t know what you think: what other religions do or do not get a free pass on this? And what happens to those who don’t follow a “rigorous interpretation”? Just sucks to be them? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/359 "2015-11-15T01:34:47Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Constitution can be amended. Haha! Yeah, good luck with that, buddy. Knock yourself out. 😃 The army’s out in force in Paris tonight – it’s 8:30am here but still night in Paris – but how long can they keep that up? Hollande has declared this to be act of war. I think ISIS can expect some stepped-up activity against them and not just from France. I am reminded of Admiral Yamamoto’s remark in the wake of his attack on Pearl Harbor: “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” While the public may have been reluctant to support heavy action against ISIS before, this may be the turning point. If any other attack occurs, particularly if it’s in yet another city, there won’t be any “may be” about it. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/360 "2015-11-15T02:03:08Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Ah, yes, the culture wars. This is what it’s really about: assimilation and doing away with those pesky cultural differences. When did assimilation become a bad thing? If immigrants don’t have to assimilate, then there is no hope for the future of this Country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=19)