# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/361 "2015-11-15T02:04:59Z")
That’s because I was thinking of the word more broadly than maybe most people do: to include other countries, not just immigrants. Either way, though, it’s a matter of degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/362 "2015-11-15T02:06:25Z")
Assimilation is not a bad thing, it’s a desirable thing. But I’ve always subscribed to the Salad Bowl view rather than the Melting Pot. The Melting Pot implies cultural distinctions disappear, and we become 'Murricans. A nice salad, however, works together nicely while retaining individual flavors and characteristics. But assimilation is a good long-term strategy. Something needs to be done about ISIS today, not tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/363 "2015-11-15T02:40:50Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > That’s why I _asked_ to begin with. You didn’t mention a military response as far as I saw, so I had no idea what you thought of it. So I asked. And I made assumptions about bus throwing, perhaps unwarranted, because of your going on and on about the cultural superiority of the West. So again, if you don’t want me making those assumptions, with all this talk about how evil Islam is and how America needs to be protected from it, what do you want to DO about it? If I missed a post, feel free to link. > > Again, I ask because I don’t know what you think: what other religions do or do not get a free pass on this? And what happens to those who don’t follow a “rigorous interpretation”? Just sucks to be them? Cultural superiority? Cultural incompatibility. You need to stop assuming. What to do about it? Have to convince the adherents of the religion that a rigorous interpretation of the parts incompatible with Western culture that in order to co-exist the parts that don’t allow coexisting without submission need to be excised. It’s no different than making the Japanese get rid of the idea of a divine emperor. Can it be done? Probably not. So we will have continuing skirmishes with Islamic radicals up until the point they get their hands on a decent weapon. In which case hardliners in the West will use that event to further their own not so nice goals. Other religions aren’t advocating or carrying out systemic terror campaigns. If other religions did so they wouldn’t get a “pass.” You think people are picking on Islam for no reason? I’m sure some do. But rational people can realize that certain sky fairies are more violent than others. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/364 "2015-11-15T03:35:48Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > When did assimilation become a bad thing? > If immigrants don’t have to assimilate, then there is no hope for the future of this Country. The problem (at least in the US) is that, for too many Americans, assimilation has traditionally meant “Conform all your practices to those that we consider acceptable, that don’t make us uncomfortable, and that fit in with a narrow conception of what American culture means.” Randolph Bourne noticed this almost one hundred years ago, when he made a plea for Americans to reject the old notion of the United States as a narrowly Anglo-Saxon civilization. He argued that if you maintain a rigid sense of what Americanism is, and require that immigrants conform to that definition, you are depriving them of a key freedom, which is the freedom to help determine “the ideals and purposes and industrial and social institutions of a country.” Basically, he was arguing that what it meant to be American needed to be reshaped in order to accommodate the diversity that immigrants brought with them. For Bourne, there was no really distinctive American culture; what made America distinctive was precisely its diversity, and Americans needed to embrace this rather than push back against it constantly in an effort to hold onto a narrow and unrealistic vision of Americanism. > [@Randolph Bourne (1916)](#): > > It is apparently our lot rather to be a federation of cultures. This we have been for half a century, and the war has made it ever more evident that this is what we are destined to remain… > > The failure of the melting-pot, far from closing the great American democratic experiment, means that it has only just begun… America is already the world-federation in miniature, the continent where for the first time in history has been achieved that miracle of hope, the peaceful living side by side, with character substantially preserved, of the most heterogeneous peoples under the sun. > > It is for the American of the younger generation to accept this cosmopolitanism, and carry it along with selfconscious and fruitful purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/365 "2015-11-15T04:29:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, let’s see - in the “Muslims” MENA we have Judaism, Christianity, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, Ba’hai, Sufis, and in northern Africa enduring outposts of animism. That’s just the ones I know about, there are likely more. > > So… not very successful. 1. Bahaism is not ‘ancient’, it’s a very modern religion. 2. Jews and Christians are explicitly supposed to be protected (and there are a lot fewer of each than there used to be 100-150 years ago). 3. Sufis are a variant of Islam 4. You forgot the Mandaeans, who have mostly left since 2003, but sure, Zoroastrianism is ancient. Unfortunately most of them have left or converted too. 5. I’d like a citation that there are any animists left in northern Africa (unless you mean west Africa, which doesn’t meet any definition of ‘northern Africa’ I’ve ever heard). I’d say the elimination of ancient religions has been pretty successful in the Middle East. (Not as successful as it was in Christian Europe, although there is apparently a bit of a neopagan revival in Scandinavia). ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/366 "2015-11-15T04:45:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is there no other evil in the world we want to get rid of? Why is Islamic evil unique in that respect? I would think banning all evil would be more desireable. So we just ask them at the border: • Will you be building a secret lair? • Are you planning on raising a mutant zombie clone army? • Do you wish you had an Imperial Guard? And will you be playing an Imperial March when making an enterance? • Do you have access to Kryptonite? • Are you entering this country with a cadre of horrific henchmen? Will you be outfitting them in black? ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/367 "2015-11-15T05:06:49Z")
If my understanding of recent events is correct, it appears a chap named Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has effectively appointed himself Caliph of the first Islamic State since Ataturk disbanded the last one in 1924. Apparently, after the fall of Mosul recently, all the necessary conditions were met to make such a pronouncement, including the seizure of territory by barbaric force. For want of a better description, we have a nutcase zealout who has appointed himself Pope of the Islamic World - if the analogy can be used in that way. But the very existence of the 2014 Caliphate is based on a premise it came into being on a war footing, and further, scripture stipulates it (The Caliphate) must engage in war like acts against infidels and/or Muslim apostates, at least once a year, lest it’s leaders will fall into sin. But it gets crazier. Whilesoever the Islamic State can claim to hold territory it will continue to exist, regardless of borders. Indeed, the very definition of The Caliphate stipulates that borders are man made concepts, not “laws which are made by God”. And there’s this concept that all “truly holy Muslims must move to the Caliphate” after it is established. It’s bizarre. It seems the locals are fleeing in their millions to be replaced by zealous outsiders who willingly desire to live under ultra extreme Sharia law. Quite ironically, getting rid of Saddam Hussein and backing the wrong players in the Syrian civil war has unwittingly invited this mess. That’s my take on it. I could well be wrong about my attempts to understand all this, of course. Even if you sent in a million foreign soldiers to take back the territory now controlled by ISIS, it so happens that scripture has already predicted the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo has already been foretold to be of unbelievable importance - like some messed up interpretatio of Nostradamus. It is at Dabiq, the Prophet reportedly said, that the armies of Rome will set up their camp. The armies of Islam will meet them, and Dabiq will be Rome’s Waterloo or its Antietam. They actually WANT the Western World to play into their trap. I reckon it’s amazing, totally amazing how all this is unfolding based on ancient scripture. Or rather, how predictable the decisions the 2014 Caliphate are, once you understand how ancient scripture in the Koran is mapping it out for them. That right there, is their weak point I rather think. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/368 "2015-11-15T05:27:03Z")
BigT, this might interest you. One, possibly two, of the attackers, were refugees: [http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html](http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html) Sometimes discrimination is rational and sensible. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/369 "2015-11-15T05:32:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BigT, this might interest you. One, possibly two, of the attackers, were refugees: > > [http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html](http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html) > > Sometimes discrimination is rational and sensible. 1 out of 800,000 is rational? [From here.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/world/paris-attacks/) > [@](#): > > One of the terrorists who died in Paris was identified as a 29-year-old French national from Courcouronnes in the city’s southern suburbs, Molins said Saturday. So all of France will be arrested? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/370 "2015-11-15T05:40:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BigT, this might interest you. One, possibly two, of the attackers, were refugees: > > [http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html](http://news.yahoo.com/two-men-linked-paris-attacks-registered-migrants-greece-195255102.html) > > Sometimes discrimination is rational and sensible. I have to comment on that, I know it is a complex issue but IIRC ISIS was reported to try to poison the well indeed. While it is still early to confirm that it was a real passport one should also realize that there was an economical reason for the failure to control the refugees better, I will have to say that a lot of the reason for that failure was that Europe and other places did not help Greece properly to deal with the issue because many nations demanded austerity from them for other reasons. Regardless if that was a good idea on economical terms, it was IMHO penny wise, pound foolish. I would not be surprised to find that many people in Greece got much needed revenue by smuggling people. Anyhow one should not forget that most of the people that are leaving Syria are denying ISIS of manpower, you bet ISIS are doing this so people like you will demand discrimination so they will get more followers, either in Europe or in Syria. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/371 "2015-11-15T05:40:24Z")
It establishes that terrorists are among the refugees, something which was vehemently disputed in the liberal circles of the Twitterverse. But okay, let’s take in refugees knowing we’ll get Americans killed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/372 "2015-11-15T05:49:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It establishes that terrorists are among the refugees, something which was vehemently disputed in the liberal circles of the Twitterverse. That just simple logic, virtually all refugees are voting with their feet about who they are supporting. Don’t know who those liberal circles were but I did not think it was going to be 100% safe. > [@adaher](#): > > But okay, let’s take in refugees knowing we’ll get Americans killed. Again, the terrorists have indeed won over you. The reality is that it has been a scandal that a lot of the people in Iraq or Afghanistan that risked their lives to support the USA occupation have lots of barriers to come to the USA, and it is precisely thanks to opinions like the one you have. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/373 "2015-11-15T05:49:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It establishes that terrorists are among the refugees, something which was vehemently disputed in the liberal circles of the Twitterverse. > > But okay, let’s take in refugees knowing we’ll get Americans killed. Roughly 200 Americans have (or tried to) traveled to Syria to join ISIS. That’s a ratio of 1:1,600,000, half as many as the ratio of terrorists to refugees. Since we aren’t getting all 800,000, you have a far high chance of being killed by one of your own countryman. And consider you don’t know who sympathizes and hasn’t tried to travel but is waiting a chance here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/374 "2015-11-15T05:53:17Z")
I’m not worried about immigrants, we have systems in place to vet immigrants. Our government has already admitted they can’t vet the refugees. But I’ll defer to Europe’s wisdom here, since they are at greater risk. Let’s see what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/375 "2015-11-15T06:12:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will have to say that a lot of the reason for that failure was that Europe and other places did not help Greece properly to deal with the issue because many nations demanded austerity from them for other reasons. > > Regardless if that was a good idea on economical terms, it was IMHO penny wise, pound foolish. I would not be surprised to find that many people in Greece got much needed revenue by smuggling people. Only a week ago I was musing that since outcomes are binary — either [say] 500,000 refugees **are** going to end up in Europe for a varying period of time or they **are not** — The EU should rationalise the transfer and set up sufficient camps, then move them up by train instead of having them stuffed in buses and other transport through windows, or having them drown by the cold rocky shores of Lesbos. I am rather more sceptical of taking in these people than most, because a/ there really is getting less and less space in the western reaches as one hits the Atlantic \* and b/ Islam is a miserable, dreary religion suited to moralistic snivellers — still more even than christianity or judaism which are both utterly dire — and I don’t want any influence on current secular states from this wretched source, ever. Still one doesn’t want these people to die, and if it’s going to happen it’s better to do it _right_. - I think further than that Montana and Wyoming might take in a million each without looking too crowded. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/376 "2015-11-15T06:40:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not worried about immigrants, we have systems in place to vet immigrants. Our government has already admitted they can’t vet the refugees. But we can keep an eye on them, really what I think is needed in this case is to let them know that they indeed will be under constant surveillance until they become officially residents and then keep some pressure on their local leaders to keep an eye on them, it has been a successful thing on many occasions; there have been some failures, but as even Bush the lesser would tell you, Muslims have rights too. > [@adaher](#): > > But I’ll defer to Europe’s wisdom here, since they are at greater risk. Let’s see what they do. Here is what Spain did already: In 2004 in the Madrid train bombings, blamed on Al-queda, 191 people died. > **[Muslims heartened by tolerance in Spain](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna6083054)** > > In the wake of the Madrid train bombings that killed over 200 people, there was a real fear among Muslim immigrants that there would be a major backlash of discrimination against them. As NBC News' Rachel Levin reports from Madrid, six months later,... > [@](#): > > MADRID, Spain — Mohamed El Afifi Mohamed was shocked, but then became gripped by fear, the day when nearly 200 people died in the bloodiest terror attack in Europe. > > “Now we are all going to be considered suspects,” he thought as the Spanish government announced that Islamic fundamentalists were responsible for blowing up four commuter trains in Madrid on March 11, 2004. > > Overnight police searched immigrant neighborhoods around Madrid and arrested dozens. Soldiers tightened security around airports and train stations throughout the country. Within two months Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso proposed legislation to monitor sermons in mosques. > > El Afifi, along with other members of the Islamic community, feared a backlash. > > “We knew we were going to have a difficult time after the bombings,” said El Afifi, the spokesman for the largest mosque in Madrid and organizer of two major blood drives for victims of the bombings. > > But, to his surprise, there were no major attacks reported against the more than half a million Muslims living in Spain. > > Fears abated > Instead of rioting, Spaniards marched with hundreds of immigrants in peaceful demonstrations against the attacks. > > “Overall we did not see a major increase in racist attacks after March 11,” said Virginia Alverez of Amnesty International. > > The Spanish government even offered residence permits and citizenship to all immigrants injured in the attack, as well as to the families of those who were injured or killed. BTW in the previous terror attack in Paris one of the victims was a Muslim policeman. I will not be surprised that other Muslims were victims also in the recent incident. > [@](#): > > Arando believes that Spain’s relatively recent transition to a democracy from a dictatorship explains why the society favors immigration. > > In 1975, when Spanish dictator Franco died, the majority of Spanish society “embraced progressive values and rejected extreme nationalism,” according to Arando. > > He believes that is one of the main reasons that as of yet there are no major anti-immigration movements in Spain like those in France, Germany or Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/377 "2015-11-15T06:41:17Z")
I have to ask, does France have the military capability to project a strong military force to a location far outside its borders? I mean could they put an army into say Syria to fight? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/378 "2015-11-15T06:43:54Z")
They can definitely deploy troops, they’ve done it in many places, I’m just not sure if they have the capability to deploy powerful offensive forces that can drive enemy armies from their territory. Then again, I’m not sure that ISIS forces can stand up against even a small, lightly armed French force of 5000 or so, especially given that they are under attack on multiple fronts from local forces and getting bombed. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/379 "2015-11-15T06:56:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > But I did learn that France is part of NATO again. I missed that they rejoined in 2009. France never left NATO. She left the integrated comand (in clear, she was still art of the alliance with the same obligations, but her military wouldn’t have been under NATO command in case of conflict). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/380 "2015-11-15T09:36:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It establishes that terrorists are among the refugees, something which was vehemently disputed in the liberal circles of the Twitterverse. > > But okay, let’s take in refugees knowing we’ll get Americans killed. By who? Who is saying it’s impossible for there to be terrorists among refugees? You do realize that refugee requirements for people resetting in the US are vastly different from people crossing in to Europe? If the US is going to fly someone in, they conduct the mother of all security screenings. It takes years and most people can’t make it through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=20)