# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/401 "2015-11-15T15:34:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Does the Navy have marines? Is there still a French foreign legion? Yes, although ours are actually [tied to the Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troupes_de_marine), the navy ones (the _Fusilier Marins_) adhere more strictly to the traditional role of a marine. That is : they stay on and defend our ships/board other ships. And [yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion). > [@](#): > > I wonder if France could put together a force with a combination special forces, active army, marines, inactive but recalled, police, and FFL? Yes, although the FFL is kind of its own special thing - they’re supposed to be thoroughly self-reliant and have their own tanks, air & arty, like the USMC does, so they rarely operate alongside conventional forces. They’re typically the first guys we send on foreign ops _avec la bite et le couteau_ as we say (“with [their] dicks and knives”, i.e. making do with what you’ve got on hand) - again, much like the USMC. But as I said, right now we’re already kinda busy doing that in central Africa. I suppose we could increase defence spending and mount new foreign regiments, but that’s not really in the cards right now (in fact a budget cut is scheduled for 2019) and in any event it would take time to train and equip the new guys. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/402 "2015-11-15T15:39:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > France never left NATO. She left the integrated comand (in clear, she was still art of the alliance with the same obligations, but her military wouldn’t have been under NATO command in case of conflict). Thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/403 "2015-11-15T19:00:23Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > There may or may not be terrorists among refugees coming from Syria, but I’m reasonably certain that this is not the greatest source of concern for any government. The Paris attacks required explosives, automatic weapons and ammunition, none of which, to anyone’s knowledge, is being hand-carried by refugees across multiple European countries. That means there is some sort of organization already existing in-country. > > The French authorities haven’t said much about the provenance of the attackers so far, but if these attacks follow previous patterns most or all of the participants will turn out to have been relatively long-term residents or citizens of one or more European countries, even if ethnically middle eastern. I am aware that one of the attackers had been alleged in early press reports to have arrived from Syria in October, but this kind of thing requires a lot more infrastructure to accomplish than can be done by a couple of mooks fresh off the boat. To further drive this point home, so far it’s been reported that [two of the attackers were French nationals and two were Belgian nationals](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/french-police-detain-7-for-questioning-in-paris-siegethe-latest-from-paris/2015/11/15/7600c208-8b38-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-banner-high_paris-630am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory). That’s half of the reported eight attackers (seven dead and they’re reportedly looking for one more who lived) already living in Europe as citizens rather than being among refugees, in addition to the proper argument you make that the attacks required enough resources to need some sort of pre-established operating groups in France and the rest of Europe. It’s likely that much of the information either way is wrong at this point. There were initial reports of one attacker using a Syrian passport, but also reports that the Syrian passport was fake. I think we’ll see a lot of corrections later. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/404 "2015-11-15T20:38:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > A correction: Sufism is not a separate sect of the Islam. Except to the Wahhabites, it is no contradiction to be Maleki sunni and follow a Sufi path (tariqa) or a Hanafi and Sufi, etc. > > Westerns seem to have gotten the idea Sufism is a specific sect, it is not (although some sufi Tariqa have some to develop in a way they end up being separate, like the Mouride). Thank you for the correction, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/405 "2015-11-15T20:51:13Z")
France has launched airstrikes against Raqqa. I hear 20 bombs have been dropped so far. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/406 "2015-11-15T20:58:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Theoretically, yes - we have at least one working aircraft carrier, a fairly decent navy and enough grunts to hold some ground, even do some fairly ninja stuff. I believe we still rely on US for the heavy lifting of transferring the ground pounders to where they need to be however (i.e. you guys have a ton of C-130s lying around everywhere that we can rent). > > OTOH, we don’t really have the kind of manpower needed to support \*multiple \*wars going on at the same time It’s actually pretty damn rare _any_ nation has to capacity to wage multiple wars or wars on two fronts. The US got away with it in WWII largely because they had most of the resources of North America at their disposal and tens of millions of people from which to draw an army. The USSR could have done it because, likewise, they had vastly greater resources than average to draw on. The British Empire falls into that category, but that’s because they held vast swathes of resource-rich territory and had no issues with recruiting non-British Isles members into their Empire. Of course, these days the British Empire is but a shadow of what it once was. At 66 million people and change France _could_ probably summon the manpower, but they only have so much territory and resources with which to equip them. France is certainly no lightweight however you look at the country, but it would be hard pressed carry a military comparable to the US, which is why comparing it to the US is unfair. Very, very few nations could match the US in that regard, that’s sort of why the US (along with the USSR and China) is called a “superpower”. > [@Magiver](#): > > There is absolutely no need to bring these people into Europe. We can treat them like any other disaster situation and give temporary shelter to them in place or as close to where they live as possible. There’s just the little detail that there is open, vicious warfare in their homeland (hence, the tide of humanity fleeing) and everyone nearby is either also at war, unstable, or unable to do much (with one glaring exception, Saudi Arabia, but as long as the oil flows they’ll do what they please and to hell with anyone else). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/407 "2015-11-15T21:19:55Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > France has launched airstrikes against Raqqa. I hear 20 bombs have been dropped so far. Government spokesfolks say the strike had been planned long before the attacks and should not be construed as any kind of tit-for-tat retaliation. Still, I expect the flyboys had at least a little “fuck you where you live” in their heart of hearts. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/408 "2015-11-15T21:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick;18861526] There’s just the little detail that there is open, vicious warfare in their homeland (hence, the tide of humanity fleeing) and everyone nearby is either also at war, unstable, or unable to do much (with one glaring exception, Saudi Arabia, but as long as the oil flows they’ll do what they please and to hell with anyone else). [/QUOTE] It is perhaps as much a question of this strange idea of temporary. The tide of Syrians trying to get away now has become important because they are exhausting their resources - many have been refugees since 2011 but the rsources in the Jordan camps and [the Lebanon run](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/world/middleeast/a-refugee-crisis-in-lebanon-hides-in-plain-sight.html?ref=middleeast)short. The Syria will look like the Lebanon in this conflict, this is another 5-7 years I think. We look at basically permanent solutions. The Lebanon and the Jordan are not rich and need more support. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/409 "2015-11-15T21:31:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is perhaps as much a question of this strange idea of temporary. The tide of Syrians trying to get away now has become important because they are exhausting their resources - many have been refugees since 2011 but the rsources in the Jordan camps and [the Lebanon run](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/13/world/middleeast/a-refugee-crisis-in-lebanon-hides-in-plain-sight.html?ref=middleeast)short. > > The Syria will look like the Lebanon in this conflict, this is another 5-7 years I think. We look at basically permanent solutions. The Lebanon and the Jordan are not rich and need more support. Please don’t take this personally, but it’s just “Lebanon” or “Syria” or France", not “the Lebanon”, “the Syria” or “the France”. For a region, yes-- it’s “The Middle East”, “The Magreb” or “The Levant”, but “the” is not needed in front of a country’s name. Unless it’s part of the name, like The United States of America, or “The [former] Soviet Union” or “The People’s Republic of China”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/410 "2015-11-15T22:17:35Z")
I have a feeling English is not Ramira’s first language. Saying “The X” is a common construction in many languages, i.e. “Vive La France” is not, as usually translated, “long live France” but more literally “Long live The France”. So, in fact, “the” is part of the name of France… in French. _Vive les différences_ ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/411 "2015-11-15T22:34:22Z")
I suspect we may be seeing a breaking news update before or during night football game from President Obama or White House official on these attacks. Something is brewing at the G20. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/412 "2015-11-15T22:50:15Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I suspect we may be seeing a breaking news update before or during night football game from President Obama or White House official on these attacks. Something is brewing at the G20. [Indeed.](http://i.radikal.com.tr/620x332/2015/11/15/fft107_mf6463572.Jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/413 "2015-11-15T23:00:29Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I suspect we may be seeing a breaking news update before or during night football game from President Obama or White House official on these attacks. Something is brewing at the G20. The IS dummies timed this wrong. The G20 is now all about putting together something sharp & jagged, to ram up IS’s hoo-ha. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/414 "2015-11-15T23:11:17Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > The IS dummies timed this wrong. > The G20 is now all about putting together something sharp & jagged, to ram up IS’s hoo-ha. That might be exactly what they’re shooting for. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/415 "2015-11-15T23:15:23Z")
Good. Let them use up some ammo. 😉 (The ME religious idiots, to clarify.) ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/416 "2015-11-16T00:14:23Z")
> [@theR](#): > > To further drive this point home, so far it’s been reported that [two of the attackers were French nationals and two were Belgian nationals](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/french-police-detain-7-for-questioning-in-paris-siegethe-latest-from-paris/2015/11/15/7600c208-8b38-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-banner-high_paris-630am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory). That’s half of the reported eight attackers (seven dead and they’re reportedly looking for one more who lived) already living in Europe as citizens rather than being among refugees, in addition to the proper argument you make that the attacks required enough resources to need some sort of pre-established operating groups in France and the rest of Europe. > > It’s likely that much of the information either way is wrong at this point. There were initial reports of one attacker using a Syrian passport, but also reports that the Syrian passport was fake. I think we’ll see a lot of corrections later. Thank You for pointing this out as I wanted to mention this important information to prevent those with agendas against refugees from stating false facts. The identified attackers were nationals of France and Belgium, NOT Syria. Of course this won’t stop those who are anti-Muslim or against refugees from Syria from spouting their nonsense. Already a Poland’s right wing government has exploited the terrorist attacks in France to shut the door to Syrians. [https://uk.news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-poland-slams-door-162131488.html#gr2gxl6](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-poland-slams-door-162131488.html#gr2gxl6) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/417 "2015-11-16T00:20:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s just the little detail that there is open, vicious warfare in their homeland (hence, the tide of humanity fleeing) and everyone nearby is either also at war, unstable, or unable to do much (with one glaring exception, Saudi Arabia, but as long as the oil flows they’ll do what they please and to hell with anyone else). Their problem. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/418 "2015-11-16T00:28:49Z")
Here is an article on the military of France for those interested. > **[French Armed Forces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces#2008_White_Paper)** > > The French Armed Forces (French: Forces armées françaises) encompass the Army, the Navy, the Air and Space Force and the Gendarmerie of the French Republic. The President of France heads the armed forces as Chief of the Armed Forces. > France has the sixth largest defence budget in the world and the first in the European Union (EU). It has the largest armed forces in size in the European Union. According to Credit Suisse, the French Armed Forces are ranked as the world's sixth-most powerful milita... I know it’s somewhat of misconception to think France’s military is weak but in reality it is among Europe’s most powerful militaries. France also has the largest nuclear arsenal after the U.S and Russia, and is a major arms dealer in the world. France has a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. By the way this is an article on French presence in Africa along with a map: > **[France's Military Is All Over Africa](https://www.businessinsider.com/frances-military-is-all-over-africa-2015-1)** > > Paris commands one of the world's most forward-deployed armies. > **[Don’t Mess With the French Military](https://warisboring.com/dont-mess-with-the-french-military/)** > > Here’s how to put the scale of Islamic State’s attacks into perspective. Within a span of few weeks, the radical Islamist group carried out the deadliest terror attack in modern French history, killing 129 people, and the deadliest attack in modern... France is also the fourth largest arms dealer in the world, even about to sell warships to Russia, even though the transaction was cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/419 "2015-11-16T01:22:53Z")
The Syrian passport is a fake: > **[Syrian passports found at Paris attacks scene were fakes made in Turkey](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-passports-found-paris-attacks-scene-were-fakes-made-turkey)** > > EU commission chief says EU does not need to review migration policy in light of fears that militants posing as refugees launched attacks This is to discredit the refugees, on the part of the terrorists. So basically terrorists exploiting the fears of right wing European wackos, who in turn exploit all this against refugees. I’m not surprised, who would carry a passport unless they wanted to leave the country? If I wanted to go on a terrorist or shooting spree, why carry my passport? Makes no sense! It’s important to get all the facts before making political shots. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/420 "2015-11-16T03:06:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I would say that, if they were to be completely honest, their answer would be a bit more complex than you seem to think it would be. [On the subject of complexity.](http://www.salon.com/2015/11/15/here_come_the_paris_truthers_paranoia_the_american_right_and_the_missing_complexity_from_our_terrorism_debate/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=22)