# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/421 "2015-11-16T03:08:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their problem. It’s a globalized globe now. There is no such thing any more, if ever there was, as “Their problem.” Problems spill over borders. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/422 "2015-11-16T03:21:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s a globalized globe now. There is no such thing any more, if ever there was, as “Their problem.” Problems spill over borders. Europe is under no obligation to get involved in a civil war or take in refugees from such a war. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/423 "2015-11-16T03:28:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s a globalized globe now. There is no such thing any more, if ever there was, as “Their problem.” Problems spill over borders. Well not really. This isn’t going to spill over American borders any more than an El Salvador civil war is going to spill over Germany’s border. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/424 "2015-11-16T04:13:01Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > France also has the largest nuclear arsenal after the U.S and Russia, and is a major arms dealer in the world. I would have put China ahead of France; but by golly, you’re right! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/425 "2015-11-16T04:21:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > There’s just the little detail that there is open, vicious warfare in their homeland (hence, the tide of humanity fleeing) and everyone nearby is either also at war, unstable, or unable to do much (with one glaring exception, Saudi Arabia, but as long as the oil flows they’ll do what they please and to hell with anyone else). > > Their problem. Which has been spilling over in to the rest of the world for quite some time now… That’s a major problem with your “solution” - the problems of the MENA region keep leaking over into the rest of the world and killing people. Sending the Syrians back to Syria doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/426 "2015-11-16T04:25:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well not really. This isn’t going to spill over American borders any more than an El Salvador civil war is going to spill over Germany’s border. Tell that to the people who died on 9/11 Global terrorism spawned in the MENA very much HAS come to America. And Bali. It doesn’t reach out and touch the furthest places as often as those nearer to its origin, but it has, it does, and it will in the future. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/427 "2015-11-16T08:50:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Global terrorism spawned in the MENA very much HAS come to America. Indeed. One of hundreds of examples - click to 30 seconds: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WcJROVgVqAA/hqdefault.jpg "Rogue Contractors Shooting Iraqi Civilians - NO END IN SIGHT") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJROVgVqAA) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/428 "2015-11-16T09:18:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Europe is under no obligation to […] take in refugees from such a war. We see it as our moral duty. \*Noblesse oblige \*(or rather, outrageous wealth does). We have the means to greet their huddled masses yearning to breathe free. And so we give it the old college try. Not doing so would be inhumane, cruel, and ultimately self-defeating. [QUOTE=John Donne] No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. [/QUOTE] Plus we kinda sorta had a hand in causing the war, so… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/429 "2015-11-16T10:01:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > We see it as our moral duty. And by “we”, you mean the minority which supports the current migration regime? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/430 "2015-11-16T10:44:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And by “we”, you mean the minority which supports the current migration regime? I mean France, anyway. Can’t speak for the unwashed furriners, but [according to this](http://www.lacimade.org/poles/defense-des-droits/nouvelles/4868-Accueil-des-Syriens---la-France-est-elle-exemplaire--), Germany, UK, Sweden, Belgium, Austria and Switzerland are also doing what they can (and France could be doing quite a bit more, especially since we sell ourselves as a traditional _terre d’accueil_). Since those are also by and large the “rich as fuck” European club, I stand by my assessment. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/431 "2015-11-16T12:36:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their problem. No, everybody’s problem. The reason they’re running from the war in Syria is that ISIS came about as the result of destabilization in the region that began with the US invasion of Iraq. We broke the region, we have responsibility for it. Even if we didn’t, on a humanitarian level we are supposed to care about our fellow humans, regardless of their nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/432 "2015-11-16T12:38:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I mean France, anyway. Can’t speak for the unwashed furriners, but [according to this](http://www.lacimade.org/poles/defense-des-droits/nouvelles/4868-Accueil-des-Syriens---la-France-est-elle-exemplaire--), Germany, UK, Sweden, Belgium, Austria and Switzerland are also doing what they can (and France could be doing quite a bit more, especially since we sell ourselves as a traditional _terre d’accueil_). > Since those are also by and large the “rich as fuck” European club, I stand by my assessment. You are constructing a “we” which doesn’t exists and using it to prove support for your pet cause. Most Europeans - including French - do not support the currenent levels of migration. [Most Support Limiting Immigration](http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/12/chapter-3-most-support-limiting-immigration/). And that was before the most recent terror attack. Can’t imagine that mass killing made a lot of people suddenly more enamoured with more migration. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/433 "2015-11-16T14:09:21Z")
immigration =/= hosting refugees ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/434 "2015-11-16T14:17:07Z")
Whats up with this “migration” baloney? Are some humans now like hummingbirds or butterflies or the swallows of Capistrono ? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/435 "2015-11-16T14:23:32Z")
Migration does not refer only to seasonal travel. It refers to permanent or semi-permanent relocation of groups (of people _or_ animals) too. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/436 "2015-11-16T14:25:06Z")
Thats not “migrating”…thats moving. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/437 "2015-11-16T14:28:35Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Thats not “migrating”…thats moving. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/438 "2015-11-16T14:53:05Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Thats not “migrating”…thats moving. It’s both. [QUOTE=OED] **migration** mi·gra·tion Pronunciation: /mīˈɡrāSH(ə)n/ noun 1 Seasonal movement of animals from one region to another: _this butterfly’s annual migration across North America_ 1.1 Movement of people to a new area or country in order to find work or better living conditions: _the extensive rural-to-urban migration has created a severe housing shortage_ [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![bbonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecb155/32.png) [@bbonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbonden)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/439 "2015-11-16T14:53:29Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > The Syrian passport is a fake: > > [http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-passports-found-scene-paris-attacks-fakes-made-turkey-police-520642631](http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-passports-found-scene-paris-attacks-fakes-made-turkey-police-520642631) > > This is to discredit the refugees, on the part of the terrorists. So basically terrorists exploiting the fears of right wing European wackos, who in turn exploit all this against refugees. > > I’m not surprised, who would carry a passport unless they wanted to leave the country? If I wanted to go on a terrorist or shooting spree, why carry my passport? Makes no sense! It’s important to get all the facts before making political shots. 1. The relevant point is not whether the passport is fake - in times of crisis, refugees often have to resort to spurious travel documents - but whether (some of) the attackers used the refugee trails to enter Europe. The current intelligence is that at least one did: > [@](#): > > A Syrian passport for Ahmad al Mohammad​, a 25-year-old born in Idlib, was found next to one of the suicide bombers after he died outside the national football stadium. > The identity of the man in the passport has not been verified but the prosecutor’s office said fingerprints from the attacker match those of someone who passed through Greece in October. [https://ca.news.yahoo.com/suspected-mastermind-paris-attacks-named-095500993.html](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/suspected-mastermind-paris-attacks-named-095500993.html) 2. The guy in charge of setting the EU’s migrant policy is quoted as saying that the policy he set and administers is just fine. Maybe it is. But that’s not exactly hard-hitting analysis. And it is highly questionable to rely on a “fake” passport if, in fact, the fingerprints match. 3. There are lots of reasons for terrorists to carry their passports. These are people who, often, do not expect to live and who, often, want the world to know of their exploits. Why wouldn’t they carry their passports? Yes, this may be a bankshot attempt to create more havoc surrounding the refugee crisis, but that is far from the most parsimonious explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/440 "2015-11-16T14:59:34Z")
Besides. If the operation is cancelled at the last moment and you have to flee the country, you would want your passport on you. Or just simply as your ID for any stops by the police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=23)