# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/441 "2015-11-16T16:37:15Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Whats up with this “migration” baloney? I like the phrase “importing terrorists” that’s getting a lot of use suddenly. Like the government is going to someplace that sells foreigners and saying, “We’ll take some suicide bombers, a few that are trained on AK-47s, and a couple of utility infielders. Oh, and a mastermind.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/442 "2015-11-16T19:48:38Z")
> [@bbonden](#): > > 1. The relevant point is not whether the passport is fake - in times of crisis, refugees often have to resort to spurious travel documents - but whether (some of) the attackers used the refugee trails to enter Europe. The current intelligence is that at least one did: > > [https://ca.news.yahoo.com/suspected-mastermind-paris-attacks-named-095500993.html](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/suspected-mastermind-paris-attacks-named-095500993.html) > > 1. The guy in charge of setting the EU’s migrant policy is quoted as saying that the policy he set and administers is just fine. Maybe it is. But that’s not exactly hard-hitting analysis. And it is highly questionable to rely on a “fake” passport if, in fact, the fingerprints match. One guy out of how many recent migrants? NO system will be 100% safe and, frankly, in some ways I’d be more worried about tourists and students (the 19 hijackers of 9/11 were in the US on student visas) than Syrian refugees who will, perhaps, be more strongly scrutinized. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/443 "2015-11-16T20:37:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Theoretically, yes - we have at least one working aircraft carrier, a fairly decent navy and enough grunts to hold some ground, even do some fairly ninja stuff. I believe we still rely on US for the heavy lifting of transferring the ground pounders to where they need to be however (i.e. you guys have a ton of C-130s lying around everywhere that we can rent). > > OTOH, we don’t really have the kind of manpower needed to support \*multiple \*wars going on at the same time ; and a sizeable part of our force projection is currently tied up in sub-Saharan Africa (in Mali, Chad & CAR). We currently field some 7,000 men down there, out of the ~15,000 the Army is supposed to be able to project. But ~5,000 of the remaining 8,000 are kept as a rapid response force in case of fire close to home (as opposed to committable to a long duration mission far from home). > > Which leaves about 3,000 guys we could, in theory, send in Syria (assuming the Army actually has them - the 15,000 number is what the government tasked it to have back in 2013). That’s not much of an army. Besides, as I understand it they’re more like the “cost of doing business” part of the projection force - replacements, training, logistics and so on. > > TL;DR : 7,000 blokes (and 70 planes) is the functional upper limit of what the _armée française_ is designed & budgeted to be able to commit outside the EU for an indefinite duration - and we’re already there. OK, Back to this. According this this [website](http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=france) your numbers are way off. France has over 200,000 frontline military personnel. Where did you get your numbers? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/444 "2015-11-17T00:34:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Tell that to the people who died on 9/11 > > Global terrorism spawned in the MENA very much HAS come to America. Well since the U.S. has bases in the Middle East and quite actively supports regimes there, I have a hard time describing it as “spill over” when someone attacks the U.S. citing that as a reason. When Hungary has to deal with hundreds of thousands of refugees, that’s a spill over effect. Bali is probably a valid example, when someone attacks tourism areas frequented by Westerners. Maybe you can explain what the phrase means to you… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/445 "2015-11-17T01:00:20Z")
I’m impressed by Hollande; he talks tough. ---
**Author:** ![Grsz11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grsz11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grsz11)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/446 "2015-11-17T01:36:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m impressed by Hollande; he talks tough. And for now he has the ability to back it. Europe has very liberal terrorist laws. I think I read that dozens have been detained in France and Belgium with tenuous links to the suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/447 "2015-11-17T02:43:42Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I like the phrase “importing terrorists” that’s getting a lot of use suddenly. Like the government is going to someplace that sells foreigners and saying, “We’ll take some suicide bombers, a few that are trained on AK-47s, and a couple of utility infielders. Oh, and a mastermind.” If they’re paying for their food and shelter isn’t that pretty much what they’re doing? Do you think ISIS hasn’t figured out they can send in their buddies at their enemy’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/448 "2015-11-17T02:48:25Z")
Something that seems to have gone unnoticed is the train attack. Had that not been foiled the shooter had a captive audience of 554 people which would have dwarfed the current attack. It’s not like you can hop off a high speed train or find a place to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/449 "2015-11-17T03:18:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you think ISIS hasn’t figured out they can send in their buddies at their enemy’s expense. Yeah, with their assault rifles and IEDs in their carry-on bags. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/450 "2015-11-17T03:49:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Something that seems to have gone unnoticed is the train attack. Had that not been foiled the shooter had a captive audience of 554 people which would have dwarfed the current attack. It’s not like you can hop off a high speed train or find a place to hide. Nor is it likely that one perpetrator was going to shoot 554 people. Also, the shooter didn’t say he was doing it for polical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/451 "2015-11-17T04:25:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yeah, with their assault rifles and IEDs in their carry-on bags. Considering there are 120+ dead bodies it’s safe to assume they figured out how to do it. Or, and I’m just throwing it out for discussion, it’s possible for thousands of people to walk into Europe without anyone knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/452 "2015-11-17T04:33:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Nor is it likely that one perpetrator was going to shoot 554 people. Also, the shooter didn’t say he was doing it for polical reasons. Are you fucking kidding me? He was in a tube full of people who couldn’t leave. Where were they going? There were fish in a barrel. It was shear dumb luck that somebody got the jump on him because once he started shooting there was no way to rush him. In what universe was this not another Islamic attack? His claim that he was going to rob people for food is ludicrous in a country where it’s literally illegal to throw food away. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/453 "2015-11-17T04:36:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Considering there are 120+ dead bodies it’s safe to assume they figured out how to do it. > > Or, and I’m just throwing it out for discussion, it’s possible for thousands of people to walk into Europe without anyone knowing. Most of the attackers were French and Belgian. They certainly had arms and explosives locally. [Cite](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/what-we-know-about-the-paris-attackers.html) [Cite.](http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/16/3722838/all-paris-attackers-identified-so-far-are-european-nationals-according-to-top-eu-official/) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/454 "2015-11-17T04:59:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you fucking kidding me? He was in a tube full of people who couldn’t leave. Where were they going? There were fish in a barrel. It was shear dumb luck that somebody got the jump on him because once he started shooting there was no way to rush him. In what universe was this not another Islamic attack? > > His claim that he was going to rob people for food is ludicrous in a country where it’s literally illegal to throw food away. Oh, a train is 200 meter long tube. Also he’s a terrorist despite not making any political statement. Educate me more please ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/455 "2015-11-17T04:59:59Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Most of the attackers were French and Belgian. They certainly had arms and explosives locally. > [Cite](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/what-we-know-about-the-paris-attackers.html) > [Cite.](http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/11/16/3722838/all-paris-attackers-identified-so-far-are-european-nationals-according-to-top-eu-official/) so, what exactly? You think they didn’t infiltrate the refugees? Is that what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/456 "2015-11-17T05:02:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh, a train is 200 meter long tube. Also he’s a terrorist despite not making any political statement. Educate me more please i seriously don’t think that’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/457 "2015-11-17T05:04:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > so, what exactly? You think they didn’t infiltrate the refugees? Is that what you’re saying? The articles were quite clear. Read 'em again. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/458 "2015-11-17T05:05:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > i seriously don’t think that’s possible. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/459 "2015-11-17T08:26:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m impressed by Hollande; he talks tough. I’m utterly unimpressed with him. The git trawled his motorcade to the Bataclan like 10 minutes after the police assault, while the EMTs and police were still trying to sort out the mess, triage the wounded, keep everybody safe, keep watch for further attacks… Yeah, I’m sure a 20 car presidential detail coming to make a few “tough” statements musta helped everybody a ton. But I guess some photo ops are a matter of life and death… [QUOTE=Urbanredneck] OK, Back to this. According this this [website](http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=france) your numbers are way off. France has over 200,000 frontline military personnel. Where did you get your numbers? [/QUOTE] French wikipedia. We have an army ~350,000 strong, actually. However, only 15,000 of those are tasked with foreign ops. The rest are for defending the country with (and I’m pretty sure that number includes the _gendarmerie_, which while administratively part of the armed forces is really a domestic, rural + crisis police force) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/460 "2015-11-17T11:08:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well since the U.S. has bases in the Middle East and quite actively supports regimes there, I have a hard time describing it as “spill over” when someone attacks the U.S. citing that as a reason. When Hungary has to deal with hundreds of thousands of refugees, that’s a spill over effect. Bali is probably a valid example, when someone attacks tourism areas frequented by Westerners. Maybe you can explain what the phrase means to you… A LOT of countries are involved in the Middle East. Just about everyone does business with them of one sort or another. The lines are all muddled here. You think the French weren’t involved in the Middle East? They were already involved in attacking ISIS in Syria, and they are major players in North Africa, fighting Islamists there. They weren’t and aren’t uninvolved bystanders in all this. Yes, Bali is spillover. Hungary/Serbia/Croatia/etc. dealing with hundreds of thousands of migrating people is a spillover, but you can’t tell me that those countries haven’t been burning Middle Eastern oil like the rest of us, and it’s oil money that’s paying for most of the havoc coming out of the MENA. If you use anything made from petroleum you’re contributing. Welcome to the global civilization, where the flapping butterfly in Syria causes slaughter in Paris and brings down Russia airplanes. > [@Magiver](#): > > Something that seems to have gone unnoticed is the train attack. Had that not been foiled the shooter had a captive audience of 554 people which would have dwarfed the current attack. It’s not like you can hop off a high speed train or find a place to hide. It’s not unnoticed - the French suspect the “mastermind” behind the Paris attacks was also involved in planning for the attempted train attack. The _English_ media isn’t saying much about it, but some of us can read/hear French media. It’s doubtful that guy would have killed all 554 people aboard - at some point, if death looks inevitable either way, some folks are going to rush him, it’s just our good fortune it happened sooner rather that later. You’re current, though, it would have been a blood bath if he hadn’t been stopped so soon. > [@Magiver](#): > > so, what exactly? You think they didn’t infiltrate the refugees? Is that what you’re saying? Here’s the problem: Let’s say you have 1,000,000 refugees. Even if NONE of them are a terrorist (however you define the term) statistically you’re going to have some criminals in there, ranging from petty pick-pockets up to rapists and murderers, you’re going to have some mentally ill people, probably some folks with a nasty disease, and so on. In other words, ANY sufficiently large group of refugees will have some not-nice people in the group. Some may be OK now, but down the line will become criminals or terrorists, and you can’t reliably predict who is going to be an Oscar Pistorus, known for wonderful accomplishments who later kills a family member/friend and goes to jail as a murderer, or some other good guy gone bad. This notion currently being bandied about by some US governors that the Feds have to _guarantee_ no immigrant will ever be or become a bad guy is bullshit. _It can’t be done_ regardless of country of origin, ethnicity, religion, or any other characteristic. The ONLY way to guarantee no bad guy ever immigrates is to _completely_ shut down all immigration. No newcomers, period. We could do that, just as we could drop a nuke on Raqqah, but it would definitely violate some of our own cultural norms in a big way. Singling out Syria refugees is condemning people due to guilt by association. It’s discriminating on the basis of national origin - something we normally find reprehensible and indeed it is even _criminal_ to do that in most circumstances in the US. It’s ignoring all the other ways Bad Guys can _and have_ “infiltrated” our societies and caused mayhem and death. It ignores that MOST of the perpetrators of modern terrorists attacks are LOCAL PEOPLE who have joined the Bad Guys. Oh - and it’s ALSO playing into the hands of ISIS who _want_ to turn this into a war of the west against all Islam, who _want_ safe haven denied to the Syrians who dared to flee their “nation” - they aren’t going to welcome those Syrian refugees back, they want to slaughter them as traitors. Mind you, I am all for screening newcomers to our nation, but this is kneejerk bigotry. > [@Kobal2](#): > > French wikipedia. We have an army ~350,000 strong, actually. However, only 15,000 of those are tasked with foreign ops. The rest are for defending the country with (and I’m pretty sure that number includes the _gendarmerie_, which while administratively part of the armed forces is really a domestic, rural + crisis police force) My understanding of the _gendarmerie_ is that they function much like the US National Guard does domestically - our National Guard provides aid after natural disasters, extra security domestically, and so forth. I don’t think the gendarmes are divided up by province the was the US National Guard is by state, but given the much greater geographical extent of the US de-centralizing the force makes some sense (along with historical/administrative/legal differences between US states and French provinces). Don’t take the analogy too far - our National Guard does travel abroad to fight, not sure the gendarmes ever have. 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