# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/461 "2015-11-17T18:32:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > My understanding of the _gendarmerie_ is that they function much like the US National Guard does domestically - our National Guard provides aid after natural disasters, extra security domestically, and so forth. I don’t think the gendarmes are divided up by province the was the US National Guard is by state, but given the much greater geographical extent of the US de-centralizing the force makes some sense (along with historical/administrative/legal differences between US states and French provinces). Don’t take the analogy too far - our National Guard does travel abroad to fight, not sure the gendarmes ever have. Yes and no. It’s complicated. It’s like the National Guard in that they have a formal military training (and hierarchy) and they also have access to much more extensive ooomph gear than the \*police nationale ; \*and yes like the Nat. Guard they do general disaster relief, complex rescues (e.g. stranded alpinists) and so on ; but unlike the \*gendarmes \*the National Guard doesn’t do speeding tickets nor arrests people for example (that I’m aware of). In France, the \*gendarmes \*are the cops assigned by the state to places that can’t afford to have their own police. Large cities are covered by the National Police, often also a municipal police if the city can afford it/wants the prestige/wants a police force that answers directly to the mayor (except Paris, which is forbidden from having one for historical reasons - the state doesn’t trust the city it sits in basically, we’re a turbulent and [riot-y](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune) people :p) while the \*gendarmerie \*covers all of the two-horse villages, isolated homes & compounds as well as the intercity road, highway & rail network. All in all they’re the primary police force for 50% of the population and 95% of the territory. So they’re really a hybrid nat. guard/county PD, if you will. /SWAT, too, since the GIGN is our main hostage rescue/counter-terrorism/bomb disposal/domestic fan de-shitting force. And I believe the \*gendarmes \*also act as MPs, policing the armed forces from within - but don’t quote me on that one. But yeah, they don’t do combat deployments at all (that I’m aware of, the closest thing I can think of is [the Ouvéa thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouv%C3%A9a_cave_hostage_taking)). Also, I just checked and there’s apparently ~100,000 of them - so they represent about a third of our armed forces. Even though they’re not \*really \*that, when it comes right down to it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/462 "2015-11-17T18:47:17Z")
Germany v Holland friendly canceled and stadium evacuated in Hamburg. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/463 "2015-11-18T12:58:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And I believe the \*gendarmes \*also act as MPs, policing the armed forces from within - but don’t quote me on that one. Partly, it depends on the situation, and it’s called the prévôté. I understand that basically they’re in charge during significant military operations and for serious criminal matters, but wouldn’t do such things as rounding up drunk soldiers on a regular military base. Gendarmerie has been handed down a lot of random stuff over the decades, due to its status in-between police and army. Like mountain rescue that you mentioned (there’s also a spelunking unit), or a role similar to that of the US coast guards. There’s an “air gendarmerie” too. And even a parachute unit. They can also have a military role in case of war or serious troubles, like protecting sensitive installations (and they have equipment like armored troop carriers for this kind of situation). The protection of French embassies is also tasked to the gendarmerie. The Republican guard is also part of the Gendarmerie, and apart from looking good on horses they’re actually in charge of protecting building such as the parliament. Gendarmes are also frequently used in peace-keeping missions. And a lot of other stuff I forgot or never knew about. That said, despite all the specific missions some subdivisions of the gendarmerie has, its main job, that employs most of its manpower is still the countryside and road police. That’s what French people have in mind when they think “gendarmerie”. The guy who will be stopping them on the highway for speeding. And second to that, anti-riot police, with the “gendarmerie mobile”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/464 "2015-11-18T13:45:08Z")
In U.S terms, it’s sort of a combination of a national-level state police, SWAT, the National Guard and a land-based Coast Guard. Lots of countries have something similar. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/465 "2015-11-18T14:20:59Z")
They had a major raid this morning. 2 dead and 7 arrested. I’m hearing they have an APB for a vehicle which the ringleader may be in. They seem to be getting some good info somewhere. They had quite the gun battle. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/466 "2015-11-18T14:34:03Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > They had a major raid this morning. 2 dead and 7 arrested. I’m hearing they have an APB for a vehicle which the ringleader may be in. > > They seem to be getting some good info somewhere. They had quite the gun battle. Wiretaps and surveillance according to reuters ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/467 "2015-11-18T15:40:21Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > They had a major raid this morning. 2 dead and 7 arrested. I’m hearing they have an APB for a vehicle which the ringleader may be in. > > They seem to be getting some good info somewhere. They had quite the gun battle. Since the AM the French language Belgian [RTBF](http://www.rtbf.be/info/dossier/attaques-terroristes-a-paris/detail_fusillade-au-nord-de-paris-lors-d-une-operation-policiere?id=9139852)has reported that Abaaoud was present and the target, but it is not yet known if he has been captured or killed. The RTBF sources were then confirmed by the Procureur’s statement. > [@](#): > > Selon nos sources, Abdelhamid Abaaoud est bien la personne qui était visée par les opérations. Le ministre français de l’Intérieur Bernard Cazeneuve et le procureur de la République de Paris François Molins l’ont confirmé en début d’après-midi. Toujours selon nos informations, Abaaoud était bel et bien présent sur les lieux ce mercredi matin. Il est cependant encore trop tôt pour établir s’il s’agit de l’homme décédé dans l’opération ou s’il figure parmi les personnes interpellées. This updating since 20 minutes, from around 16h20. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/468 "2015-11-18T20:55:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In U.S terms, it’s sort of a combination of a national-level state police, SWAT, the National Guard and a land-based Coast Guard. > > Lots of countries have something similar. Hmm… with some elements of the country sheriff office (that’s who provides rural policing, the county sheriff, in the US). I would like to thanks the folks who took the time to clarify what the gendarmes are to the rest of us, much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/469 "2015-11-18T20:59:03Z")
For the benefit of those who don’t know French, Ramira’s quite in the above post is more or less as follows: > [@](#): > > According to our sources, Abdelhamid Abaaoud is the person who was targeted by the operations. The French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve and prosecutor Francois Molins de Paris confirmed early this afternoon. According to our information , Abaaoud was indeed present at the scene Wednesday morning . However, it is too early to determine whether this is the man who died in the operation or if he is among those arrested . Apparently the deceased were… um… in pieces. At least the ones killed by the lady in the suicide vest were. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/470 "2015-11-19T01:40:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Apparently the deceased were… um… in pieces. At least the ones killed by the lady in the suicide vest were. May they rest in pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/471 "2015-11-19T02:46:51Z")
And a [police dog died in the line of duty](http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/police-dog-dies-paris-saint-denis/index.html) too. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/472 "2015-11-19T04:36:05Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > And a [police dog died in the line of duty](http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/police-dog-dies-paris-saint-denis/index.html) too. ☹ All dogs go to heaven. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/474 "2015-11-19T10:17:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Hmm… with some elements of the country sheriff office (that’s who provides rural policing, the county sheriff, in the US). A lot more of this than anything else, in fact. > [@](#): > > I would like to thanks the folks who took the time to clarify what the gendarmes are to the rest of us, much appreciated. Historically, they originated in military units garrisoned in the French provinces that, besides their military job, were tasked with pursuing criminals and protecting the highways when there wasn’t a police yet. Over time they became independant from the regular army, while keeping their military status, mode of organization and duties (for instance, most live in buildings besides the station rather than wherever they want, they have ranks identical to those of the regular army, they can be called to work at any time for any duration and won’t get paid any overtime, which is in fact a permanent issue, soldiers from the regular army can be put under their command or the other way around if needed, people could be conscripted in the gendarmerie when there still was a military service, etc…). In fact the word “gendarmes” (gens d’armes) means men-at-arms, showing their origin. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/475 "2015-11-19T11:46:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Like mountain rescue that you mentioned (there’s also a spelunking unit), or a role similar to that of the US coast guards. Great information you’ve provided; however, the US only has one Coast Guard (it’s one branch of our Armed Forces). ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/476 "2015-11-19T12:38:45Z")
Reports are coming in that they got the ringleader. He is dead. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/477 "2015-11-19T12:51:28Z")
Breaking news from the BBC – Abdelhamid Abaaoud, mastermind of the Paris attacks and apparently a high-ranking liaison between ISIS leadership and cells in Europe, was among the dead in the Saint-Denis raid. Copy-paste from the BBC: \*\*\*"The suspected ringleader of the Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, has been identified among Saint Denis raid dead, the Paris prosecutor has said. His body was found riddled with bullets and shrapnel in the building in northern Paris on Wednesday. The Belgian national, 27, was identified from his fingerprints."\*\*\* Link: [Paris attacks: 'Ringleader' Abdelhamid Abaaoud killed in raid - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34867615) “Hey, Beelzebub; get a new pot ready. Incoming!” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/478 "2015-11-19T12:52:52Z")
[RFI](http://www.english.rfi.fr/) > [@](#): > > Paris attacks mastermind killed > The body of suspected mastermind of Friday’s terror attacks in Paris, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, has been identified as one of the dead in yesterday’s police raid on a home in Saint Denis, just outside the city, French police say It is a pity, the interrogation would have been desirable. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/479 "2015-11-19T13:07:16Z")
There’s a part of me that thinks you don’t interrogate rabid dogs, you shoot them. I’m not sure you’d get much interrogating such a person. There’s no magic way to get someone to talk, and there’s no way to make sure they tell you the truth if they do. On the other hand, if you kill them they can no longer act to threaten others. I’m not normally in favor of execution without a trial, but if there is an exception to be made it would be in this sort of situation. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/480 "2015-11-19T13:10:59Z")
hey don;t have a ringleader. It’s just a guy in a hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/481 "2015-11-19T13:33:34Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > hey don;t have a ringleader. It’s just a guy in a hierarchy. I would say not a ringleader, but apparently he was the guy who devised the plans for the attacks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=25)