# Scores killed in explosions and shootout in Paris. Hostages being held **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499 "2015-11-13T21:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/141 "2015-11-14T03:19:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It is still early, but I believe that France has been awakened and will be taking aggressive action. I believe that we should stand by them 100% militarily or in any other way. Tonight we are all French. The United States stands with you. What options do you think are open to France? It’s full of resentful, unemployed, young Muslims just a couple of clicks from being radicalized. Any really effective action taken against the perpetrators would likely result in a major insurrection. The baguette is already burnt. ---
**Author:** ![F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@F.Pu-du-he-pa-as](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.Pu-du-he-pa-as)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/142 "2015-11-14T03:26:54Z")
I have a bunch of colleagues over there. I hope everyone’s all right. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/143 "2015-11-14T03:37:43Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > What options do you think are open to France? It’s full of resentful, unemployed, young Muslims just a couple of clicks from being radicalized. Any really effective action taken against the perpetrators would likely result in a major insurrection. The baguette is already burnt. If that was true, then it’s not just a few bad apples, which would also be informative for France. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/144 "2015-11-14T03:40:20Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Glad you’re safe, **clairobscur**. Ditto this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/145 "2015-11-14T03:45:06Z")
Courage and comfort to all Franco-Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/146 "2015-11-14T03:48:26Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m hearing at least one band member was killed. I’m hearing all the band members are safe, although they haven’t completely accounted for everyone who was traveling with the band. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/147 "2015-11-14T03:57:45Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Not really anymore. The U.S.and Canada have plenty of domestic sources of oil and natural gas because of shale oil fracking combined with tar sands. The U.S. is expected to be energy independent and an overall exporter by 2030 but that could be moved up quickly if circumstances dictated it. The supply chains are complicated and prices would increase some (but not more than we have seen in recent years) but the U.S. does not strictly depend on the Middle East for fossil fuels anymore. > > In fact, many of the major domestic finds are shut down right now only because prices dropped because new drilling technology produced so much domestically that it would flood the market and make extraction unprofitable. That stuff is millions of years old and isn’t going anywhere. We can tap it again anytime we need to once the price rises again. The 2008 - 2012 period when fracking hit its major strides proved that fossil fuel booms are still out there domestically and can even force speculators shoot themselves in the foot if they produce too much, too soon. > > The domestic supply is there and already tapped and ready for refinement in the short and medium term. It just follows a classic supply/demand price curve. For that reason among others, [the House of Saud might have some rough times in the near future](http://www.thenation.com/article/the-saudis-are-stumbling-they-may-take-the-middle-east-with-them/). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/148 "2015-11-14T04:02:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > . > > The Saudis have been quite clear that falling oil prices actually help them maintain their global market share, because they can extract their oil more cheaply than most other producers, and considerably more cheaply than American fields that rely on more complicated extraction processes. That doesn’t make sense on face value. If they keep the same level of output they’re losing money. right now it’s at 1970 prices. When you factor in inflation it has to be hurting them. And if we’re pumping more oil then the only way they can maintain market share is to increase production. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/149 "2015-11-14T04:04:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You have to ask? We need the oil. And if they’re not selling oil where is their money coming from? They need us far more than we need them. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/150 "2015-11-14T04:08:40Z")
Yes, Machiavelli warned about being so gratuituously cruel that you went past being feared into being\* hated\* and making it so those you oppress could not do worse by fighting you than by submitting. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _Je Suis Eagles of Death Metal!_ > > Needs work . . . Their death metal cred may have gone through the roof, though. Or conversely they’ll be in conversations with Anthrax to take over the “Basketfull of Puppies” alternate name. …oh, please like I’m the only one in the Hellbound elevsator… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/151 "2015-11-14T04:10:12Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > But this “war” is coming soon to a country near you (i.e. the USA). This is where the evil bastards really want to carry out their massacres. We (the USA) are the Big Prize. Just as soon as these animals figure out a way to get in and attack here, they will. The question is, do we wait for that attack before we react with real force? Or do we act preemptively. Those evil bastards already figured out how to attack the US. The evil bastards–singly, together–have attacked before now. Some of the evil bastards were home-grown. Some of them were Christians. What’s your solution for keeping out people who are born there? > [@](#): > > I am not a fan of preemptive war. Not at all. But this whole thing isn’t going to just run it’s course. It’s going to take decisive military action and lots and lots of blood to even attempt to stop this. Is this just a Middle East problem? Just a European problem? Or is it an issue on which the entire world must unite to aggressively address. What decisive military action would you suggest? Not everyone in the countries where the evil bastards are from (like, say, the USA) is one of the evil bastards. There’s also the issue that the actual governments of the evil bastards’ home countries are against the evil bastards. So, I ask again: What decisive military action do you suggest? Perhaps you could mention one that does not attack innocents. After all, you don’t want to be the same kind of evil bastards as those who intentionally kill innocents, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/152 "2015-11-14T04:14:01Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > What options do you think are open to France? It’s full of resentful, unemployed, young Muslims just a couple of clicks from being radicalized. Any really effective action taken against the perpetrators would likely result in a major insurrection. The baguette is already burnt. A few questions: [ol][li]Is part of the reason those young Muslims are resentful because they find it very difficult to get employed?[/li][li]Is part of the reason those young Muslims find it very difficult to get employed ant-Muslim prejudice?[/li][\*]Does anyone think that if those young Muslims were to, say, change religion to, say, Catholicism society would all of a sudden treat them differently?[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/153 "2015-11-14T04:14:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Those evil bastards already figured out how to attack the US. The evil bastards–singly, together–have attacked before now. Some of the evil bastards were home-grown. Some of them were Christians. What’s your solution for keeping out people who are born there? We don’t need to keep the people out. We just need to keep the ideas which motivate them out. The only way to do that is through aggressive debunking, and strong promotion of secular values as being simply _better_ than religious ones. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/154 "2015-11-14T04:16:47Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > We don’t need to keep the people out. We just need to keep the ideas which motivate them out. The only way to do that is through aggressive debunking, and strong promotion of secular values as being simply _better_ than religious ones. Well, I’m seeing, as a response to this latest outrage, “nice Christian” people advocating essentially the same kind of extremist stupidity as that of those who killed innocents in Paris. In case you’re wondering, that response is: “Let’s kill them all” or “Confine them all” or “Keep them all out”…Well, you get the idea, one would hope. By the way, what do you think the ideas are that are motivating them (and by _them_, I mean either the “nice Christians” or the extremist Muslims)? If you will say that Islam is their motivation, then you will be talking from extreme ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/155 "2015-11-14T04:26:54Z")
Carrying out attacks on other countries gives us a satisfying feeling of retribution, but doesn’t do anything about the problem in the long run. It’s a virus of extremism that will just have to run its course. And most of the slaughter occurs in Islamic countries, so from a Western point of view, it’s just a question of how to limit the spillover. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/156 "2015-11-14T04:27:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That doesn’t make sense on face value. If they keep the same level of output they’re losing money. right now it’s at 1970 prices. When you factor in inflation it has to be hurting them. > > And if we’re pumping more oil then the only way they can maintain market share is to increase production. Saudi came close to the economic brink earlier this year due to this maintenance of low prices for oil. They won’t face internal revolution since they spread the wealth about quite generously in national welfare; but they may have to cut back on their adventurism against Iran. And to another extent against Russia… And even against America. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/157 "2015-11-14T04:31:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, I’m seeing, as a response to this latest outrage, “nice Christian” people advocating essentially the same kind of extremist stupidity as that of those who killed innocents in Paris. In case you’re wondering, that response is: “Let’s kill them all” or “Confine them all” or “Keep them all out”…Well, you get the idea, one would hope. I’m not excusing that. I can only note that promoting secular values of tolerance and pluralism likely won’t go down well with some Christians either. > [@Monty](#): > > By the way, what do you think the ideas are that are motivating them (and by _them_, I mean either the “nice Christians” or the extremist Muslims)? If you will say that Islam is their motivation, then you will be talking from extreme ignorance. I’m not sure this thread is really the place for talking about these ideas, but since I brought them up I owe you an answer. The ideas I’m referring to are the ideas of jihad as offensive war, martyrdom, and sectarianism. Now, I’m aware that Jihad as offensive war is but one kind of Jihad among many. I’m also aware that Islamic scripture lists numerous ways in which one can become a martyr, including drowning, dying in a fire or dying of plague. But that doesn’t change the fact that one of those ways is still dying “In defence of Islam”, a phrase which, depending on one’s personal level of sectarian feeling, can mean almost anything. An honest reading of Islamic scripture also reveals a strong strain of antipathy towards unbelievers. In fact, this antipathy permeates nearly every surah in the Koran and is amply substantiated in the hadith. To believe one of these ideas is bad enough. To believe all three of them is to believe pretty much everything necessary to commit murder with impunity and think it glorious. As I said, I’m not sure this thread is the best place to go into these ideas in depth and, in hindsight, I regret bringing them up. I was posting in the heat of the moment, so to speak. If you want to talk about it further I’ll happily join you in GD but until then I think I ought to recuse myself from this thread to save derailing it further. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/158 "2015-11-14T04:34:42Z")
I’m seeing all the known attackers are dead now. None captured alive. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/159 "2015-11-14T04:43:41Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m seeing all the known attackers are dead now. None captured alive. Good! I hope their 72 virgins are all homely and nag them about mundane complaints for all eternity. It is the small details that make it the difference between Heaven and Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499/160 "2015-11-14T04:47:32Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Good! I hope their 72 virgins are all homely and nag them about mundane complaints for all eternity. > > It is the small details that make it the difference between Heaven and Hell. Good in a way. But I would prefer one or two captured alive to extract information from. This is one case where I would definitely look the other way for the extraction methods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scores-killed-in-explosions-and-shootout-in-paris-hostages-being-held/737499.md?page=9)