# Scotland Independence Referendum Mk2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081 "2017-03-13T12:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/1 "2017-03-13T12:04:07Z")
Sturgeon is going to aim [for a new referendum come 2018/2019](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181) Somehow I feel after the uncertainty that was Brexit; they might not win again. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/2 "2017-03-13T12:10:38Z")
Make that, might not win despite everything. I also doubt Westminster will be in a mood to permit a simple “Yes or No” answer, more likely they wull insist on a very major firebreak. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/3 "2017-03-13T12:13:06Z")
Are they going to try to separate and join the European Union? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/4 "2017-03-13T12:23:30Z")
A second referendum depends upon permission from Westminster, which will not be forthcoming. Sturgeon is seeking a new referendum to divert attention from the huge rate rises she’s imposing on Scotland. We have elections coming up and the SNP are likely to get a huge kicking because of these rises. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/5 "2017-03-13T12:24:31Z")
Will Westminster be in the mood to permit any referendum? The SNP now seems to believe that any time the UK makes a political decision that Scotland doesn’t like, the previous referendum is no longer operative. Why would the government indulge that kind of behavior at all? Non-independence is, well, non-independence. That means occasionally having to go along with things you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/6 "2017-03-13T12:30:45Z")
As they say eventually in all the best divorces … whatever it takes, just get that woman\* out of my life!\* ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/7 "2017-03-13T13:44:42Z")
Are you in favour of independence from Nicola Sturgeon? Yes ☑  No ☐ ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/8 "2017-03-13T14:02:21Z")
_like_ ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/9 "2017-03-13T14:15:07Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A second referendum depends upon permission from Westminster, which will not be forthcoming. Sturgeon is seeking a new referendum to divert attention from the huge rate rises she’s imposing on Scotland. We have elections coming up and the SNP are likely to get a huge kicking because of these rises. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Will Westminster be in the mood to permit any referendum? I think refusing a referendum would be playing with fire. The SNP’s strongest argument - and founding principle - is that Westminster is ignoring, nay silencing, the voice of Scotland. Refusing a referendum that had won a majority of votes in Holyrood would simply be endorsing this worldview. “The SNP are right, so we won’t let you listen to them.” It would take very little work for nationalists to make this the rallying cry for independence, and push a lot of waverers off the fence. It would also make unionism practically untenable in public - who wants to find themselves arguing in favour of being told to shut up? Coward, puppet, lapdog - the rhetoric writes itself. Denying a referendum would be a short-term win but a certain long-term loss. > [@](#): > > The SNP now seems to believe that any time the UK makes a political decision that Scotland doesn’t like, the previous referendum is no longer operative. Why would the government indulge that kind of behavior at all? Non-independence is, well, non-independence. That means occasionally having to go along with things you don’t like. This is a little unfair. The government’s headlong rush out of the single market with scant regard for anyone’s, including the Scots, concerns about the best way to implement Leave, is more than just a run of the mill political decision that the Scots happen to disagree with. The statement by [Patrick Harvie of the Greens](https://www.facebook.com/PatrickHarvieGreen/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf) announcing his support for the second referendum puts it pretty well: > [@](#): > > I’m very pleased to welcome today’s confirmation that a Section 30 order will be sought. That step is clearly necessary if Scotland is to have the option of holding a referendum, to give everyone who lives here the choice about our own future. > > The UK Government has been reckless and destructive in every possible way since June last year, taking a narrow result as a mandate for ripping the UK out of the single market, which even Leave campaigners promised not to do. They have treated Scotland with nothing but contempt, refusing to respect the 62% Remain vote, and refusing to engage either with Government or with Parliament on these critical issues. > > I know that not everyone who voted Remain last year will suddenly convert to supporting independence if they didn’t before. However it’s also clear that not everyone who voted No in 2014 is willing to see Scotland dragged along with a hard right, anti-immigrant, “Empire 2.0” Brexit agenda. > > Voters in Scotland deserve the right to make their choice, and I will make the strongest case I can for a Green vision for Scotland’s future as an independent European country. May’s inability to consider any other approach than hard Brexit has fed right in to the SNP master narrative. She must have been told this. Clearly, she decided it didn’t matter. Given that, I doubt she even has much interest in denying a referendum. There are certainly more than a few right-wing Tories who would happily get shot of Scotland - Brexit was always more about England than about the UK, and there are major party-political benefits to the Tories if Westminster becoming even more dominated by English seats. Against a Tory faction making that argument, you have Corbyn’s Labour and whatever Unionist Tory MPs feel like making a stand on that principle. We know exactly how May responds when she has choose which of those two factions to lean towards. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/10 "2017-03-13T15:21:14Z")
If they get another shot, can’t the UK get another shot at the Brexit vote? And maybe America on Trump?(kidding, this one is permanent) ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/11 "2017-03-13T15:28:32Z")
I think the current oil price will mean an uphill struggle for the Indy side to win. So much of the independence movement is simply a desire for greater social democracy in Scotland than the UK government will permit. Still, any result is possible if 2016 is anything to go by. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/12 "2017-03-13T16:13:28Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I think refusing a referendum would be playing with fire. I disagree. We’ve just had one referendum; we don’t need another. Indeed, one reason people voted to leave the EU was the EU’s habit of repeatedly asking the question until it got the right answer. > [@](#): > > May’s inability to consider any other approach than hard Brexit May is playing her cards very close to her chest and people are reading that to their own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/13 "2017-03-13T16:24:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > May is playing her cards very close to her chest and people are reading that to their own benefit. [Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/14 "2017-03-13T18:27:07Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > [Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208) That’s hardly news and by no means indicates a hard Brexit - however you define that. We leave the single market perforce by leaving the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/15 "2017-03-13T18:43:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Make that, might not win despite everything. > I also doubt Westminster will be in a mood to permit a simple “Yes or No” answer, more likely they wull insist on a very major firebreak. Sturgeon has asked for the previous question to be used “Should Scotland be an Independent Country?”. Difficult to change without reason. Whatever Westminster wants it has to go before the Electoral Commission for a decision, and they approved the kast one! ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/16 "2017-03-13T18:47:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A second referendum depends upon permission from Westminster, which will not be forthcoming. Sturgeon is seeking a new referendum to divert attention from the huge rate rises she’s imposing on Scotland. We have elections coming up and the SNP are likely to get a huge kicking because of these rises. The consensus is that refusal would stoke the fires for independence. Westminster is predicted to try to delay rather than stop the referendum. This plays into the SNP’s hands as we will be campaigning starting tomorrw. The last campaign lasted nearly two years and the Yes vote went from low thirties to mid forties. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/17 "2017-03-13T18:48:58Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Are they going to try to separate and join the European Union? That or EFTA or at least the single market. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/18 "2017-03-13T18:50:26Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Will Westminster be in the mood to permit any referendum? > > The SNP now seems to believe that any time the UK makes a political decision that Scotland doesn’t like, the previous referendum is no longer operative. Why would the government indulge that kind of behavior at all? Non-independence is, well, non-independence. That means occasionally having to go along with things you don’t like. Denying a referendum would be the best way to drive up the Independence vote. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/19 "2017-03-13T22:32:57Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > The consensus is that refusal would stoke the fires for independence. Cite? I’ve heard nothing of that sort except from the SNP Anyway [May has rejected](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/may-rejects-sturgeons-demand-for-second-independence-vote) Sturgeon’s demand. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/20 "2017-03-13T22:57:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Cite? I’ve heard nothing of that sort except from the SNP > > Anyway [May has rejected](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/may-rejects-sturgeons-demand-for-second-independence-vote) Sturgeon’s demand. Read her words. She did not reject it. She said she didn’t think it should happen soon. It will be accepted and will happen! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081.md?page=2)