# Scotland Independence Referendum Mk2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081 "2017-03-13T12:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/61 "2017-03-14T11:04:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A full and hard border is likely in the event of a Scottish departure combined with Brexit. That would be strange. An open border between NI and the Republic, and a hard border with Scotland. Seems unlikely! ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/62 "2017-03-14T11:04:46Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Which is all fair enough, but I can easily give an alternative scenario; that politicians are shysters. They obfuscate. Sturgeon would have found a reason for Indyref2 no matter what after any Brexit deal. A hard Brexit may concentrate Unionist minds in Scotland. An independent Scotland cast out of both the British & European Union will _not_ be an attractive scenario for many Scots. That is a very likely scenario Scots will face when they cast their votes during any Indyref2. A hard Brexit may yet be the best card any Unionist politician could have played. Half in, half out could have given Scottish nationalists the EU safety net many of them so desperately seek. The burning any European bridges is therefore not as reckless as you think. I believe my alternative analysis is just as valid as yours, but we shall only find out for sure in 3 or 4 years time. You’re talking about the impact of hard Brexit on the referendum outcome. I’m talking about the impact of hard Brexit on the existence of a referendum itself. It may be that in the event of a referendum hard Brexit is a Unionist recruiting sergeant as you suggest. But if a referendum is happening, all outcomes are in play. Avoiding the referendum is the surer way to keep the Union intact. Sturgeon did not and does not have majority support for a referendum now. But May’s intransigence has given her a window to call for one on the well-tested grounds that Westminster is silencing Scots. It may work out alright in the end, but it’s a gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/63 "2017-03-14T11:13:53Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Try and think this through. It’s clear you have not. This was all gone through last time around. > [@](#): > > Independence would not result in loss of British Nationality as it us illegal to take away someone’s last citizenship. Which part of independence are you failing to understand? By voting for independence we would be voluntarily surrendering English / rUK citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/64 "2017-03-14T11:15:25Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > If the Scottish economy did tank, I would certainly move south. Nothing could stop me! You would be thrown back at the border. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/65 "2017-03-14T11:16:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It’s clear you have not. This was all gone through last time around. > > Which part of independence are you failing to understand? By voting for independence we would be voluntarily surrendering English / rUK citizenship. Let’s start with this- How would I be surrendering my British nationality? ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/66 "2017-03-14T11:18:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You would be thrown back at the border. With a British passport stating that I had the right to residence? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/67 "2017-03-14T11:23:05Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Let’s start with this- How would I be surrendering my British nationality? By being a Scottish citizen in an independent Scotland. Again, which part of independence are you failing to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/68 "2017-03-14T11:26:38Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > With a British passport stating that I had the right to residence? Your British passport would no longer be valid as you would no longer be a British citizen. You would instead have a Scottish passport. I ask again, which part of independence are you failing to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/69 "2017-03-14T11:26:48Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Unlikely. Sadly, unlikely does not seem to be what it was as a predictor of what might happen. Personally, I suspect it would be heavily dependent on how badly an independent Scotland’s economy could tank. The worse it goes, the more interesting being redeemed by Norway would look. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/70 "2017-03-14T11:28:34Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Personally, I suspect it would be heavily dependent on how badly an independent Scotland’s economy could tank. The worse it goes, the more interesting being redeemed by Norway would look. It’s entirely possible that the Orkneys and Shetland might ask to remain part of the rUK. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/71 "2017-03-14T11:32:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It’s entirely possible that the Orkneys and Shetland might ask to remain part of the rUK. Quite true. Legally more complicated, but easier in practice. Assuming the rUKs economy weathers better than Scotlands, probably more probable as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/72 "2017-03-14T11:33:26Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > By being a Scottish citizen in an independent Scotland. Again, which part of independence are you failing to understand? I would not be a Scottish citizen unless I applied for it. I would be an expat living in Scotland. But any other nationality is allowed joint British nationality without giving up their right of residence. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/73 "2017-03-14T11:35:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Your British passport would no longer be valid as you would no longer be a British citizen. You would instead have a Scottish passport. I ask again, which part of independence are you failing to understand? Why would my passport not be valid? I just happen to be resident in Scotland. Residence in any other country does not strip you of citizenship, ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/74 "2017-03-14T11:37:57Z")
It is worth pointing out that people born before 1948 in Ireland are automatically eligible for a full British passport with normal rights to residence. See Terry Wogan. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/75 "2017-03-14T12:00:18Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > I would not be a Scottish citizen unless I applied for it. No. All UK citizens resident in Scotland would become Scottish citizens, having rejected and disposed of UK citizenship through the independence vote. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/76 "2017-03-14T12:07:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No. All UK citizens resident in Scotland would become Scottish citizens, having rejected and disposed of UK citizenship through the independence vote. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Please provide some support for your idea. How would passports be differentiated at Border control? Say I fly to New York from Glasgow and return into Heathrow. Hiw would they knw I had been resident in Scotland at Independence. How about all the English, Welsh and Northern Irish in Scotland? How about Scots in the armed forces? How about the Common Travel area? Why are all Irish citizens born before final partition eligible for full British citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/77 "2017-03-14T13:16:42Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > You are in cloud cuckoo land. I’m not the one resorting to insults. > [@](#): > > How would passports be differentiated at Border control? Your passport has a number. That will be checked. Indeed, I would not be surprised if new passports were issued to rUK citizens the day after a Scottish vote for independence. > [@](#): > > Say I fly to New York from Glasgow and return into Heathrow. Hiw would they knw I had been resident in Scotland at Independence. Again, your passport has a number. Your name is on a database. > [@](#): > > How about all the English, Welsh and Northern Irish in Scotland? Assuming they had a vote, they / we would become Scottish. > [@](#): > > How about Scots in the armed forces? They get given a choice. > [@](#): > > How about the Common Travel area? An independent Scotland would not be a member until it negotiated membership. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/78 "2017-03-14T14:13:01Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > You do realise that GDP per head is higher in Scotland than for the UK? Scotland’s budget deficit outside of the UK is projected at 9-10%, far too high to meet EU fiscal norms at present. It also receives far more than its taxpayers put in via the Barnett formula. GDP per capita is a broad economic measure, not a fiscal one. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/79 "2017-03-14T14:14:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Westminster is not going to be nearly as accommodating as Cameron was in 2011/2012. What a difference a fathead makes ! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/80 "2017-03-14T14:24:45Z")
Yeah, the idea that all of the persons resident in Scotland would “automatically” retain English/British citizenship is questionable. It’s not unheard of for someone to lose their passport rights in the case of national split ups as their old ones became invalid and become replaced by new ones for a new state. If I had to guess neither side would be interested in people who are just living in Scotland for work and whose family is in the South, and who intend to move back some day losing British citizenship. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a period of time during which Scottish residents can apply to retain British citizenship, but I doubt it’ll be automatic. These people moving to the South is not a good thing for the Scottish independence argument, you’re basically talking about a “brain drain” as it’ll be the more skilled workers getting out of dodge first most likely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081.md?page=5)