# Scotland Independence Referendum Mk2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081 "2017-03-13T12:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/101 "2017-03-14T16:55:31Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > There is a growing feeling here that it is much more than economics. Cameron was skilled in not pushing buttons, May is stamping on the buttons with her kitten heels. I expect a lurch in the polls if she continues her current insults and intransigence. So… it will be a bad idea economically, but fuck it we’re kind of angry? That’s the pitch? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/102 "2017-03-14T17:02:32Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > But people with current right to live in the UK have the right go move there. It cannot be easily removed. But it’s not being removed; by deciding to be a separate, independent, country people would be giving up the right of residence - and work and everything else - in the rest of the UK. What part of independence do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/103 "2017-03-14T17:03:04Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So… it will be a bad idea economically, but fuck it we’re kind of angry? That’s the pitch? A little more nuanced than that. But Scots hate being told what to do by England. In the past few days May has lectured the democratically elected Scottish Government about how it should conduct its affairs, criticised the health and education system, resisted a second referendum, refused to agree to return devolved powers from Europe to Holyrood, and threatened the 1998 devolution settlement. It has not been well received. I think she faiis to understand Scottish sentiment. I suspect she may be our best campaigner. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/104 "2017-03-14T17:04:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But it’s not being removed; by deciding to be a separate, independent, country people would be giving up the right of residence - and work and everything else - in the rest of the UK. What part of independence do you not understand? No. Such rights are basically inalienable. What part of international law do you not understand. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/105 "2017-03-14T17:10:09Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > I did not say that it would happen or would be planned. I did say that any separation agreement would need to leave Scotland with sufficient assets to survive as an Independent nation because rUK could not countenance an impoverished failed state to its north. That’s decidedly wishful thinking. A Scotland that voted for independence would find itself getting short shrift from the remainder of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/106 "2017-03-14T17:12:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That’s decidedly wishful thinking. A Scotland that voted for independence would find itself getting short shrift from the remainder of the UK. Only if they wanted to create a failed state and massive immigration. It would not happen. No one has suggested it. Britsh Citizenshipmand residence are immutable. Please provide cites for your views. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/107 "2017-03-14T17:12:48Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > It has not been well received. I think she faiis to understand Scottish sentiment. It has not been well received by the SNP. Everyone else seems delighted that Wee Kelpie has been put in her place again. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/108 "2017-03-14T17:13:37Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > A little more nuanced than that. But Scots hate being told what to do by England. > > In the past few days May has lectured the democratically elected Scottish Government about how it should conduct its affairs, criticised the health and education system, resisted a second referendum, refused to agree to return devolved powers from Europe to Holyrood, and threatened the 1998 devolution settlement. > > It has not been well received. I think she faiis to understand Scottish sentiment. > > I suspect she may be our best campaigner. I am a Scot, so spare me the reductive explanations of how I feel. I’m pissed off about Brexit, and especially about May’s approach, but if the pitch is a slightly more nuanced version of “It’s a bad idea economically, but fuck those guys”, I’m out. The other thing they used to say about Scots is that we had a good head for numbers and were governed by unsentimental common sense. But that was in the days when we had a good education system. ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/109 "2017-03-14T17:15:11Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I am a Scot, so spare me the reductive explanations of how I feel. I’m pissed off about Brexit, and especially about May’s approach, but if the pitch is a slightly more nuanced version of “It’s a bad idea economically, but fuck those guys”, I’m out. > > The other thing they used to say about Scots is that we had a good head for numbers and were governed by unsentimental common sense. But that was in the days when we had a good education system. Watch for a bounce in the next set of polls! ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/110 "2017-03-14T17:22:26Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Scotland would automatically be in the Commonwealth as one of the Queen’s Realms. The UK does not control the Commonwealth and would have no say about Scotland’s continuing membership. So the Queen — who’s removal as Head of State in order to make a new Scottish Republic, the end-game, will accede to Scotland’s place in the **[Commonwealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations)** just to be nice ? Not that it’s up to her. There would be little in it for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting and the Commonwealth Secretariat to let in a new nation, any more than for the EU to do so — and the EU is in no hurry when it let’s new people in: takes about 10 years, and Scotland would have to queue behind the 8 countries now in line, who would be justly aggrieved if Scotland demanded primacy; presumably on the legal grounds of _"Wha’s Like Us !_" And as was pointed out above, Ireland is not part of the Commonwealth since it finally cut the ties that bond. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/111 "2017-03-14T17:22:31Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Only if they wanted to create a failed state and massive immigration. It would not happen. No one has suggested it. Britsh Citizenshipmand residence are immutable. No they’re not immutable. Scotland would be giving them up. It’s a big difference. A vote for independence is a vote for leaving the UK, therefore giving up citizenship and all rights. Scots would have no right of residence in England. An impoverished Scotland would be very desirable for British business as a threat to British workers. Which part of independence are you failing to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/112 "2017-03-14T17:38:02Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > So the Queen — who’s removal as Head of State in order to make a new Scottish Republic, the end-game, will accede to Scotland’s place in the **[Commonwealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations)** just to be nice ? Not that it’s up to her. There would be little in it for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting and the Commonwealth Secretariat to let in a new nation, any more than for the EU to do so — and the EU is in no hurry when it let’s new people in: takes about 10 years, and Scotland would have to queue behind the 8 countries now in line, who would be justly aggrieved if Scotland demanded primacy; presumably on the legal grounds of _"Wha’s Like Us !_" > And as was pointed out above, Ireland is not part of the Commonwealth since it finally cut the ties that bond. 1/ There us minimal support for a Republic in Scotland 2/ The Queen would automatically become Queen if Scotland or remain Queen of the UK including Scotland, England, Wales and NI as a realm rather than a political entity. 3/ The Commonwealth is administered by its secretariat and the Queen takes no part in its day to day running. 4/ Her role as head if the Commonwealth is not hereditary, but merely a personal position. 5/ No vote is necessary to admit to the Commonwealth a Democracy in good standing that was once under British rule. 6/ Scotland has laws totally aligned to the EU law. 7/ Admission to the EEA would be smooth and quick, forming a halfway house with access to the single market and customs union. Apart from that your post is totally accurate ---
**Author:** ![Lyonessite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecccb3/32.png) [@Lyonessite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyonessite)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/113 "2017-03-14T17:39:06Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No they’re not immutable. Scotland would be giving them up. It’s a big difference. > > A vote for independence is a vote for leaving the UK, therefore giving up citizenship and all rights. Scots would have no right of residence in England. An impoverished Scotland would be very desirable for British business as a threat to British workers. > > Which part of independence are you failing to understand? Any cite or other support for your opinion would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/114 "2017-03-14T17:43:13Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > No. Such rights are basically inalienable. What part of international law do you not understand. When Singapore left/was pushed from Malaysia Singaporeans they got new passports and their previous rights to be Malaysian citizens no longer applied. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/115 "2017-03-14T17:46:21Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > 1/ There us minimal support for a Republic in Scotland > 2/ The Queen would automatically become Queen if Scotland or remain Queen of the UK including Scotland, England, Wales and NI as a realm rather than a political entity. > 3/ The Commonwealth is administered by its secretariat and the Queen takes no part in its day to day running. > 4/ Her role as head if the Commonwealth is not hereditary, but merely a personal position. > 5/ No vote is necessary to admit to the Commonwealth a Democracy in good standing that was once under British rule. > 6/ Scotland has laws totally aligned to the EU law. > 7/ Admission to the EEA would be smooth and quick, forming a halfway house with access to the single market and customs union. > > Apart from that your post is totally accurate Ah, the power of day-dreams ! ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/116 "2017-03-14T17:48:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Moreover, you cannot compare this with Ireland, that is a physically separate Island of Ireland and controls are reletively easy to setup, not the case here. You really haven’t quite thought that through, have you? There is the small matter of part of the island of Ireland being still within the UK. Not to mention the contrast between, on the one hand, the entire bitter history of British-Irish relations still culminating in a common travel area and residence and voting rights in the UK, and, on the other, your suggestion that a so far reasonably polite and civilised debate about Scottish independence must necessarily culminate in all such residual links between Scotland and the rump UK being immediately ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/117 "2017-03-14T17:55:54Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > You really haven’t quite thought that through, have you? There is the small matter of part of the island of Ireland being still within the UK. > > Not to mention the contrast between, on the one hand, the entire bitter history of British-Irish relations still culminating in a common travel area and residence and voting rights in the UK, and, on the other, your suggestion that a so far reasonably polite and civilised debate about Scottish independence must necessarily culminate in all such residual links between Scotland and the rump UK being immediately ruled out. :rolleyes: I said border controls and checks. Not that they would declare a free fire zone at the border. Plus it was easy to setup checks on travel between GB and the Island of Ireland, there were controls on travel from NI to the mainland till IIRC, 1952. Also, right now the main focus of the Brexit campaign was control of borders, do you think the rUK is going to agree to an essentially open border to the rest of the EU? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/118 "2017-03-14T18:09:06Z")
There’s quite a bit of smuggling between the Ulsterfolk and the Irish. Scottish Independence, with border controls along the Cheviots and the Royal Navy repurposed to patrol duty in St. George’s Channel and the German Ocean, would certainly offer glittering opportunities to practitioners of this ancient craft. Groceries and cheap Chinese crap they can’t afford flowing north; whisky, drugs and people to the Sassanachs. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/119 "2017-03-14T18:13:56Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Any cite or other support for your opinion would be appreciated. Perhaps you might refer to a dictionary and look up the word ‘independence’? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081/120 "2017-03-14T18:26:09Z")
> [@Lyonessite](#): > > Watch for a bounce in the next set of polls! We are still bothered about polls? You admit yourself it will probably only be a bounce. Im fairly sure that whenever Indyref2 takes place not one Scot will give a flying f\*ck about May “lecturing” Nicola Sturgeon. Economic numbers will take precedence over all else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotland-independence-referendum-mk2/782081.md?page=7)