# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/221 "2014-02-15T17:11:23Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Not to speak for LC Strawhouse, but you’re not wrong. Scotland was of course heavily influenced in the Union and changed enormously. But it doesn’t necessarily mean it was changes imposed only by the English, or that those changes were opposed by the Scots. The Scottish Enlightenment took place in the 18th Century - one of Scotland’s greatest moments as a centre of political and economic thought, and that in turn heavily influenced how things turned out elsewhere in the UK. Sure, but here’s the thing, which colors all the conversations. When people think of Scotland and Scottish history…even when Scots think of Scotland and Scottish history, they think of the Highlands. You can maybe blame Sir Walter Scott for this, but probably not entirely. But, regardless, when somebody thinks of the archetypical Scot, they think of some Highland Laird, not of a barrister in Edinburgh. Even in Scottish Gaelic, the Lowlands is called \* a’ Ghalldachd\*…the home of the foreigner. A lot of it is tied up with the Jacobite rising, I think, and the way that, in the 19th century, Scottish nationalism and romantic sentiment tied itself to that…Culloden, Bonnie Prince Charlie and all that. So, the Scottish Enlightenment took place in the 18th century, and people like Adam Smith, James Boswell, Hugh Blair, David Hume, John Leslie, Colin Maclaurin, etc, did shape the UK and, in fact, the world, but people don’t think of those people and that movement when they think of Scotland. I’d disagree with you, though, when you say that the Second Jacobite Rising was “a foreign invasion.” It was obviously an invasion of England, certainly, but, while there was a plan to land French troops in 1743 to back Charles, a storm destroyed the invasion fleet. There were about 700 Irish troops fighting on the Jacobite side in '45, but the Jacobite forces were almost entirely Scottish (both Highlander and Lowlander…Edinburgh came out pretty strongly for Charles.) For that matter, the same was true of the 1715 uprising. The Jacobite forces were primarily Scottish, with English (the Earl of Derwentwater) and Irish (the Irish Brigade) contingents, ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/222 "2014-02-15T17:26:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fuck **that** shit! Freedom for East Anglia! [bomb explodes in train station] Wessex has been held down or far too long! Long live Aethelstan II! ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/223 "2014-02-15T17:37:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure, but here’s the thing, which colors all the conversations. When people think of Scotland and Scottish history…even when Scots think of Scotland and Scottish history, they think of the Highlands. You can maybe blame Sir Walter Scott for this, but probably not entirely. But, regardless, when somebody thinks of the archetypical Scot, they think of some Highland Laird, not of a barrister in Edinburgh. Speak for yourself dude! 😉 Some people think that all Americans are John Wayne wannabes or that all Canadians speak French and live in igloos, but that doesn’t make a lick of difference to people who live there. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/224 "2014-02-15T18:19:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > even when Scots think of Scotland and Scottish history, they think of the Highlands. That’s a component, but it’s also the Enlightenment, and being one of the great foundries of the industrial revolution and Empire. It’s not all tartan, sheep and broadswords. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/225 "2014-02-15T18:56:21Z")
As it happens, the only clergyman to sign the Declaration of Independence was an anti-Jacobite and perhaps the most prominent Scotsman in America during the Revolution: [John Witherspoon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Witherspoon) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/226 "2014-02-15T19:12:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > As it happens, the only clergyman to sign the Declaration of Independence was an anti-Jacobite and perhaps the most prominent Scotsman in America during the Revolution: [John Witherspoon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Witherspoon) The other Scot was [Wilson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wilson). There may have been other FFs who were of Scottish parentage for all I know. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/227 "2014-02-15T22:24:31Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The other Scot was [Wilson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wilson). There may have been other FFs who were of Scottish parentage for all I know. George Ross’s father was Scottish. Matthew Thornton was an Ulster Scot. Thomas McKean’s and Edward Rutledge’s parents were Ulster-Scots. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/228 "2014-02-16T03:48:43Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I’m not sure that it’s as narrow as hating Thatcher, which is surely getting to be ancient history itself now. The complaint we hear is “why do we have to put up with a Tory government that we didn’t vote for?” > > As an argument for independence, though, it seems circular to me. In any unified country of any complexity, there are always regions that lean strongly one way or another politically. You might as well ask why voters in shire counties have to sometimes accept distant Labour governments in London that they didn’t vote for, or why people in Kansas should be expected to tolerate a Democratic president. It’s just part and parcel of being a unified country. > > To argue that Scotland should be independent because it is unfair that English voters sometimes impose their governments on Scotland is to presuppose that Scotland and England should be politically separate. It is a legitimate point of view, but it’s a weak argument since it simply assumes that its premise is true. Although I’m unsympathetic to the “yes” voters and Alex Salmond in particular, the Scots don’t see themselves as just a region. They feel a much stronger sense of national identity than the English generally do, so if their part of the UK votes significantly to the left of much of England, I can see why they might feel independence is a better option. On top of this, London is, by far, the UK’s biggest city and the centre of almost everything except the actual country - it’s right down in the south. I’m quite unsympathetic to most of the anti-London sentiments I read or hear expressed also, but there is a real imbalance and something does need to be done to redress that. I’m beginning to lean towards favouring a kind of federal system with some kind of proportional representation, so different “regions” of the UK can have more control, but I doubt it would be easy to implement. Apart from the four constituent countries, and probably Cornwall, any divisions would be quite arbitrary. Many would end up with their votes even less well-represented, as areas that traditionally support one party will end up lumped into a new region that always votes for another and permanently suffer a regional government they never want on top of the times they have to put up with a national government they didn’t want. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/229 "2014-02-16T04:02:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Although I’m unsympathetic to the “yes” voters and Alex Salmond in particular, the Scots don’t see themselves as just a region. They feel a much stronger sense of national identity than the English generally do, so if their part of the UK votes significantly to the left of much of England, I can see why they might feel independence is a better option. On top of this, London is, by far, the UK’s biggest city and the centre of almost everything except the actual country - it’s right down in the south. I’m quite unsympathetic to most of the anti-London sentiments I read or hear expressed also, but there is a real imbalance and something does need to be done to redress that. I’m beginning to lean towards favouring a kind of federal system with some kind of proportional representation, so different “regions” of the UK can have more control, but I doubt it would be easy to implement. Apart from the four constituent countries, and probably Cornwall, any divisions would be quite arbitrary. Many would end up with their votes even less well-represented, as areas that traditionally support one party will end up lumped into a new region that always votes for another and permanently suffer a regional government they never want on top of the times they have to put up with a national government they didn’t want. Whatever you do, don’t let the party in power control how lines are drawn. That way lies the nonsense that is the polarized US congress. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/230 "2014-02-17T09:37:52Z")
If I could drag the discussion away from the American Revolution just for a nanosecond, what is Scottish feeling about news reports over the last few days with (a) the 3 main Westminster parties saying there won’t be a monetary union and (b) the EU President saying it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Scotland to join the EU? Does this mean voters are swinging to ‘yes’ as a ‘fuck you’? ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/231 "2014-02-17T12:53:03Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > If I could drag the discussion away from the American Revolution just for a nanosecond, what is Scottish feeling about news reports over the last few days with (a) the 3 main Westminster parties saying there won’t be a monetary union and (b) the EU President saying it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Scotland to join the EU? Does this mean voters are swinging to ‘yes’ as a ‘fuck you’? Most people I have spoken to are not at all happy with the bullying tactics of (a). Hopefully those that are floating voters will realise that the current government are treating Scotland like a battered wife and vote accordingly. “I love you but if you go I’m not negotiating on anything, I’m going to make your life a misery even if that’s not in my own best interest”. Pathetic. I would also like to think most people will see through why the current EU President is coming up with that particular line of nonsense. As for whether it is swinging anyone towards Yes I don’t know. The people I know are firmly entrenched in their particular camps. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/232 "2014-02-17T13:26:42Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > Most people I have spoken to are not at all happy with the bullying tactics of (a). > > Hopefully those that are floating voters will realise that the current government are treating Scotland like a battered wife and vote accordingly. > > “I love you but if you go I’m not negotiating on anything, I’m going to make your life a misery even if that’s not in my own best interest”. > Pathetic. I hear this way too much. In what sense do you think this is bullying? If Scotland can vote for independence unilaterally, I don’t see why Westminster should have any obligations to make concessions for Scotland. You say “I’m going to make your life a misery **even if that’s not in my own best interest** ”, but what makes you assume it is? I could criticize “yes” voters with “I’m going to vote for independence even if it’s not in my best interest”. But it doesn’t illuminate anything except my own opinions. Honestly though, if you want to go down the “wife analogy” route (does she really need to be battered?) I’d characterize it more like this: “This life sucks. I’m going to divorce you. Then I’m going to quit my job and earn all the money I need from my art. But I still expect to live in this house and share responsibility for the mortgage and the bills. What? You don’t like that? That’s bullying! In that case, I’m leaving and never paying a penny more on that mortgage!” ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/233 "2014-02-17T13:35:11Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I hear this way too much. In what sense do you think this is bullying? If Scotland can vote for independence unilaterally, I don’t see why Westminster should have any obligations to make concessions for Scotland. You say “I’m going to make your life a misery **even if that’s not in my own best interest** ”, but what makes you assume it is? I could criticize “yes” voters with “I’m going to vote for independence even if it’s not in my best interest”. But it doesn’t illuminate anything except my own opinions. > > Honestly though, if you want to go down the “wife analogy” route (does she really need to be battered?) I’d characterize it more like this: > > “This life sucks. I’m going to divorce you. Then I’m going to quit my job and earn all the money I need from my art. But I still expect to live in this house and share responsibility for the mortgage and the bills. What? You don’t like that? That’s bullying! In that case, I’m leaving and never paying a penny more on that mortgage!” The fact that they are saying there will be no negotiating on certain matters is the bullying behaviour. They are lying in order to frighten people into voting No. Of course they will negotiate and I’m sure some sort of currency union would indeed be on the table. > **[The big guns turned their fire on Scotland ... but courage can still trump fear](https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13145998.big-guns-turned-fire-scotland-courage-can-still-trump-fear/)** > > A Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, riding into town, laying down the law, and then riding out again without giving any TV interviews, made even many… (Speak to many of the anti-Thatcherites and I’m sure you’ll find many Scots who feel we’ve been battered) ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/234 "2014-02-17T14:08:32Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > The fact that they are saying there will be no negotiating on certain matters is the bullying behaviour. They are lying in order to frighten people into voting No. > Of course they will negotiate and I’m sure some sort of currency union would indeed be on the table. > > [The big guns turned their fire on Scotland ... but courage can still trump fear | The Herald](http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/the-big-guns-turned-their-fire-on-scotland-but-courage-can-still-trump-fear.23444291) > > (Speak to many of the anti-Thatcherites and I’m sure you’ll find many Scots who feel we’ve been battered) That’s all to be expected. What are the SNP putting on the table that they don’t have to? I don’t see them eager to negotiate except in areas where they have no choice if they want something. They’ve acted as unilaterally as they can get away with. Unsurprisingly, the same goes for most people. ETA: I would support putting a currency union to a vote in the rest of the UK if it comes to it. But at the moment, I would vote “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/235 "2014-02-17T14:27:07Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > That’s all to be expected. What are the SNP putting on the table that they don’t have to? I don’t see them eager to negotiate except in areas where they have no choice if they want something. They’ve acted as unilaterally as they can get away with. Unsurprisingly, the same goes for most people. > > ETA: I would support putting a currency union to a vote in the rest of the UK if it comes to it. But at the moment, I would vote “no”. Do you have any specific examples? As far as I am aware the Yes campaign has always said that they will negotiate with everything that needs negotiated on. Is there something that Westminster would like to negotiate on that the S.N.P. have already made a policy decision on? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/236 "2014-02-17T15:01:18Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > If I could drag the discussion away from the American Revolution just for a nanosecond, what is Scottish feeling about news reports over the last few days with (a) the 3 main Westminster parties saying there won’t be a monetary union and (b) the EU President saying it will be difficult, if not impossible, for Scotland to join the EU? Does this mean voters are swinging to ‘yes’ as a ‘fuck you’? With regard to the EU thing, various EU officials have made apparently contradictory statements on this matter. I’ve never really heard a serious argument that Scotland would not be able to join the EU post-independence so I suspect most people aren’t really taking his comments seriously. Currency union? I think the “Yes” camp is claiming it’s bullying and the “No” camp is basically saying “Told you so!” As to whether it’s pushing undecideds towards voting yes, I’d say it probably is, a little. Cameron and Osborne etc could best help their case by keeping their heads down - nothing they say on any matter is going to play well up here where they’re despised. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/237 "2014-02-17T15:03:41Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > As far as I am aware the Yes campaign has always said that they will negotiate with everything that needs negotiated on. Exactly. If they don’t need to negotiate, they won’t. If they need to, they will. At the moment, the balance of power means they’re more likely to have to negotiate, but that doesn’t mean they’ll give up things they don’t have to give up. I’d be interested to see how flexible they become if and when they’re running an independent country. It’s not Westminster’s job to hand a “yes” vote to Salmond by fixing all the holes in his plan. He’s not looking for negotiation, he’s looking for a favour. If his vision isn’t workable without expecting other countries to put themselves at risk in order to prop it up, it should be allowed to die. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/238 "2014-02-17T15:06:10Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Whatever you do, don’t let the party in power control how lines are drawn. That way lies the nonsense that is the polarized US congress. Thankfully that’s not the way it’s done anywhere in the UK. Boundaries are set by various independent commissions. I suspect that’s how it would be done in an independent Scotland as well. The structure is already in place and determines the Holyrood constituencies at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/239 "2014-02-17T16:08:17Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > With regard to the EU thing, various EU officials have made apparently contradictory statements on this matter. I’ve never really heard a serious argument that Scotland would not be able to join the EU post-independence so I suspect most people aren’t really taking his comments seriously. Scotland will/would end up in the EU but there are still questions over how long that will take, and under what precise circumstances they get to join. The big question is will Scotland have to do as every other succession country has to and join the Euro, or somehow grandfather itself in under the UK arrangements? I genuinely don’t get any sense that \*this \*currency union is even being thought about, despite the fairly massive implications. > [@](#): > > Currency union? I think the “Yes” camp is claiming it’s bullying and the “No” camp is basically saying “Told you so!” As to whether it’s pushing undecideds towards voting yes, I’d say it probably is, a little. Cameron and Osborne etc could best help their case by keeping their heads down - nothing they say on any matter is going to play well up here where they’re despised. True, but the fundamental point he was making is probably strong enough to justify it: the SNP and Salmond’s blueprint for an independent Scotland is little more than wishful thinking. Salmond has had his whole life to prepare for this moment: why isn’t he ready? ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/240 "2014-02-17T16:31:49Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Exactly. If they don’t need to negotiate, they won’t. If they need to, they will. At the moment, the balance of power means they’re more likely to have to negotiate, but that doesn’t mean they’ll give up things they don’t have to give up. I’d be interested to see how flexible they become if and when they’re running an independent country. > > It’s not Westminster’s job to hand a “yes” vote to Salmond by fixing all the holes in his plan. He’s not looking for negotiation, he’s looking for a favour. If his vision isn’t workable without expecting other countries to put themselves at risk in order to prop it up, it should be allowed to die. Give up what? What things are you talking about? Have you read the article in the Herald I linked to? Have you read the white paper? There’s plenty of sharing of resources and services between the devolved parts of the government (pseudo-independence) and Westminster. Westminster also shares responsibility and funding of Irish waterways. So that’s something shared with a foreign country. Things may not be simple if there’s a Yes vote but Westminster currently pretending they are unworkable and essentially saying they don’t want to make things work with their second biggest trading partner is just ridiculous. They don’t want us to go because it makes life more difficult for them but why should we stay? What would the rest of the UK lose if Scotland left? I’ve yet to hear that argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=13)