# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/241 "2014-02-17T17:25:55Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > They don’t want us to go because it makes life more difficult for them but why should we stay? What would the rest of the UK lose if Scotland left? > I’ve yet to hear that argument. Honestly, I couldn’t tell you, that is the sort of information I would love to hear but feel national debates like this are more about emotional pleas to both sides than anything else. (Bit like the old debate about ‘are we better off in or out of the EU’? I don’t think the electorate ever gets a straight answer. Maybe nobody knows). I was just perusing some polls ([at whatscotlandthinks.org](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/opinion-polls)) and was surprised to note that support for independence is lowest among young voters. Whys is that? Is animosity towards the English less pronounced amongst the young? Or are they less nationalistic generally? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/242 "2014-02-17T17:38:56Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > With regard to the EU thing, various EU officials have made apparently contradictory statements on this matter. I’ve never really heard a serious argument that Scotland would not be able to join the EU post-independence so I suspect most people aren’t really taking his comments seriously. There is nothing which makes it automatically impossible for Scotland to join the EU, but they would have to go through the joining process. They wouldn’t be in without going through all the hoops and loops, and it’s a process which takes years. Some EU members (those with independentist movements in their own territories) are expected to be extremely reluctant to let them in, to avoid _encouraging les autres_. Somehow, people manage to read the above paragraph as both “of course Scotland will join the EU” and “there is no way Scotland will ever be able to join the EU”. Every comment I’ve seen made by an actual EU officer has amounted to the whole paragraph; the reporting distorts it quite rapidly, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/243 "2014-02-17T23:12:45Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Honestly, I couldn’t tell you, that is the sort of information I would love to hear but feel national debates like this are more about emotional pleas to both sides than anything else. (Bit like the old debate about ‘are we better off in or out of the EU’? I don’t think the electorate ever gets a straight answer. Maybe nobody knows). It’s unfortunate that such debates boil down to tribalism on the one hand and fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) on the other. I mean if this was really about conservative policies, one would think that the Scots would have voted themselves a higher VAT tax to provide themselves more services. In the US, state spending shares as a percentage of GDP can vary quite a bit. And as for the poll tax, that was intended to screw the London mayor; it wasn’t about Scotland. Hey, I didn’t like it either. The debate _should_ be about topics like [optimal currency areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area), [Tiebout sorting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiebout_model), and [the Dutch disease](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease). Those for independence should need to demonstrate explicitly why devolution can’t properly handle varying preferences for public services in the UK. As for stereotypes, while bagpipes and kilts come to mind when I think of Scotland, I also imagine bankers, engineers (Scotty!), Edinborough intellectuals past and present and an annual arts festival. I don’t think they have a brand problem and if they want to level up via a modest industrial policy or public welfare initiative, I encourage them to do so. Methinks the English wouldn’t stop them. An increase in the VAT by 0.5% could buy a lot of symbolism, if Scottish leaders remain focused. And if they can’t… well the problem isn’t really in Westminster now, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/244 "2014-02-18T00:22:56Z")
Don’t forget soldiers. To a large extent, it was Scots who took up arms to build the Empire. Also inventors, gilded age industrialists, and … um … religious fanatics. Okay, maybe not fanatics, but pastors and priests. Hm … drunken louts? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/245 "2014-02-18T01:22:24Z")
I had to visit wikipedia to figure out what the [Highland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands) and [Lowland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Lowlands) were. I really had no idea. Also: holey moley, they really do have a top notch brand, don’t they? Finally: there’s something to be said for free migration into a more southerly latitude, especially when ocean currents from the Caribbean could be disrupted due to natural or anthropogenic factors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/246 "2014-02-18T01:58:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Don’t forget soldiers. To a large extent, it was Scots who took up arms to build the Empire. > > Also inventors, gilded age industrialists, and … um … religious fanatics. Okay, maybe not fanatics, but pastors and priests. > > Hm … drunken louts? If it ain’t Scottish, it’s **crrrrap!** ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/247 "2014-02-18T03:10:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s unfortunate that such debates boil down to tribalism on the one hand and fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) on the other. I mean if this was really about conservative policies, one would think that the Scots would have voted themselves a higher VAT tax to provide themselves more services. In the US, state spending shares as a percentage of GDP can vary quite a bit. And as for the poll tax, that was intended to screw the London mayor; it wasn’t about Scotland. Hey, I didn’t like it either. > > The debate _should_ be about topics like [optimal currency areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area), [Tiebout sorting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiebout_model), and [the Dutch disease](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease). Those for independence should need to demonstrate explicitly why devolution can’t properly handle varying preferences for public services in the UK. > > As for stereotypes, while bagpipes and kilts come to mind when I think of Scotland, I also imagine bankers, engineers (Scotty!), Edinborough intellectuals past and present and an annual arts festival. I don’t think they have a brand problem and if they want to level up via a modest industrial policy or public welfare initiative, I encourage them to do so. Methinks the English wouldn’t stop them. An increase in the VAT by 0.5% could buy a lot of symbolism, if Scottish leaders remain focused. And if they can’t… well the problem isn’t really in Westminster now, is it? Why VAT? It’s a regressive tax, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/248 "2014-02-18T03:53:41Z")
Before Ireland switched to the Euro, their Punt was pegged to the British pound. Why couldn’t Scotland do the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/249 "2014-02-18T03:57:37Z")
They could. But Ireland didn’t get to sit in the BoE and help make decisions, nor do those Latin American countries which use the USD as much or more as their local currency sit in the US Treasury. Monetary union and pegging your currency are two completely different animals. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/250 "2014-02-18T10:42:56Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Honestly, I couldn’t tell you, that is the sort of information I would love to hear but feel national debates like this are more about emotional pleas to both sides than anything else. (Bit like the old debate about ‘are we better off in or out of the EU’? I don’t think the electorate ever gets a straight answer. Maybe nobody knows). > > I was just perusing some polls ([at whatscotlandthinks.org](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/opinion-polls)) and was surprised to note that support for independence is lowest among young voters. Whys is that? Is animosity towards the English less pronounced amongst the young? Or are they less nationalistic generally? It surprises me that the young are not supporting independence in greater numbers. I have no idea why that is though. From the youngsters I know, the Yes voters are passionate, the No voters are almost ambivelent so are defaulting to the status-quo. Maybe a lot of the youth just don’t want to engage in politics? Don’t think all those voting Yes have animosity towards the English though. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/251 "2014-02-19T01:17:58Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Why VAT? It’s a regressive tax, after all. An income tax hike would be ok too, if they have the authority. (I don’t know what they have the authority to do.) VAT was an example. Though thinking it over, if Scottish nationalists are really gung-ho about policy X, they shouldn’t mind a small increase in a broad-based, albeit regressive, tax. ## My point though is that they’ve had the power to adjust tax rates for years now and haven’t used it AFAIK. That’s ok, but it indicates to me that their disagreements with Westminster’s social welfare policy don’t run very deep. Which implies that the reasons for separation are emotional, possibly sentimental. That’s a poor foundation for policy and a distraction from matters more important than tribal identity. I’m also rather dubious about the suggestion Scotland can leave the UK, but _of course_ they would retain institutional influence on central bank policy. Woah. One of the defining characteristics of a nation is controlling its own currency. Is this a confederation they are pursuing? Whatever they want, ISTM that separation or redefinition should be a joint decision and a matter for negotiation with Westminster: this sort of thing is understood in Belgium and Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/252 "2014-02-19T12:21:16Z")
Adjusting the tax rate alone would do nothing but drive people south of the border. In order to implement their social policies properly they need full control of all taxation and spending to ensure people aren’t driven away. Just sticking up the tax rate on it’s own would be a sure fire way of losing the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/253 "2014-02-19T14:22:20Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > The fact that they are saying there will be no negotiating on certain matters is the bullying behaviour. They are lying in order to frighten people into voting No. > Of course they will negotiate and I’m sure some sort of currency union would indeed be on the table. > > [The big guns turned their fire on Scotland ... but courage can still trump fear | The Herald](http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/the-big-guns-turned-their-fire-on-scotland-but-courage-can-still-trump-fear.23444291) > > (Speak to many of the anti-Thatcherites and I’m sure you’ll find many Scots who feel we’ve been battered) Why should one tenth of the population of the UK unilaterally decide that the other nine tenths should support them in a currency union post-independence? A currency union for the rUK entails a lot of risk for very little benefit. The Scottish financial sector alone is approximately 12 times GDP. For reference, both Cyprus and Iceland had a financial sector ~6 times GDP when they came crashing down. As for lying: the UK as a whole has a longstanding antipathy to currency unions ever since Black Wednesday and us crashing out of the Eternal Recession Mechanism. We’re not in the Euro, for example, despite the EU being our main trade partner. Why, then, would we ever join in a currency union with our second largest trade partner? It is hardly surprising that the UK parties rule out even negotiating this, as it is unpopular in the rest of the UK (~60% oppose it), Salmond has signalled any currency union would only be temporary therefore opening up Sterling to speculative attacks, Salmond has threatened economic warfare against the rest of the UK by promising to undercut their corporation tax rates by 3% post-independence, and any currency union would need both the rUK and iScotland to pool sovereignty. Frankly, it is breathtaking that Salmond did not anticipate an announcement like this. The last week he’s been looking like an idiot trying to convince everybody that when the UK parties say they don’t want a currency union they really mean that they do, instead of regrouping and coming up with a plan B. From what I can gather, the “Better Together” campaign has been mostly anonymous, until now. Yet with a single punch from the Westminster Parties, Salmond’s on the ropes with what looks to be a concussion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/254 "2014-02-19T14:45:31Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > The fact that they are saying there will be no negotiating on certain matters is the bullying behaviour. They are lying in order to frighten people into voting No. > Of course they will negotiate and I’m sure some sort of currency union would indeed be on the table. Were I a Scottish voter, why should I believe you instead of them? They’re the ones who have complete control over the currency, and they say it won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/255 "2014-02-19T15:32:04Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Why should one tenth of the population of the UK unilaterally decide that the other nine tenths should support them in a currency union post-independence? A currency union for the rUK entails a lot of risk for very little benefit. The Scottish financial sector alone is approximately 12 times GDP. For reference, both Cyprus and Iceland had a financial sector ~6 times GDP when they came crashing down. I must admit the more I read about this currency union, the more I can see why the rUK wouldn’t consider it. If I was Scottish, I would be more concerned about what will happen with the EU. Salmond seems to be working under the assumption that Scotland gets a free pass directly in, whereas everything else I’ve read suggests that (a) other countries could object (Spain), (b) membership approval could take years and (c) aren’t new members supposed to agree to joining the Euro and the Shengen zone anyway? Both things the ‘yes’ campaign doesn’t want? The whole idea seems like a right mess from here. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/256 "2014-02-19T17:40:14Z")
I do have a vote and think that a currency union is a seriously bad idea. ISTM that Salmond wants a currency union so he can have someone to blame when things don’t work out. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/257 "2014-02-19T17:44:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I do have a vote and think that a currency union is a seriously bad idea. ISTM that Salmond wants a currency union so he can have someone to blame when things don’t work out. So which way will you be voting? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/258 "2014-02-19T18:15:57Z")
> [@Arch\_Trout](#): > > Give up what? > What things are you talking about? Negotiation is about giving something as well as taking something. Most people, especially governments, go into negotiations looking to take as much as they can while giving as little in return as possible. I’m not talking about sharing resources, I’m saying that I don’t believe that Holyrood is any more generous when it comes to what they give in negotiations than Westminster is. Westminster is claiming a currency union would be a bad thing. Assuming we at least act as if we think these are genuine beliefs, they need to be offered something in order for there to be a real negotiation. That’s what I mean by Holyrood/SNP “giving up” something. > [@](#): > > Have you read the article in the Herald I linked to? > Have you read the white paper? I’ve read the article. I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be taking away from it. It’s largely opinion, and makes some good points, but its particular relevance is a little lost on me. As for the white paper, sorry, but no. This is of interest to me, but not quite so much that I want to spend hours working through almost 700 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/259 "2014-02-19T18:52:07Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > So which way will you be voting? I am currently undecided and listening to all parties with interest. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/260 "2014-02-19T22:48:11Z")
As an Englishman and a Unionist, I wouldn’t want Scotland to leave the Union, but if it is the democratic will of a majority of the Scottish people, then I hope that we can part as friends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=14)