# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/401 "2014-07-31T03:37:59Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > If YES wins, will the English remove St Andrew’s Cross from their flag? 😕 I don’t think the English flag does have the St. Andrew’s Cross, does it? > [@Askance](#): > > If so, that could be the break the Australian Republican campaign has been waiting for … I don’t understand the bit about it being what the Australian Republican campaign has been waiting for, so I have this horrible feeling of missing out on something very obvious and being stupid. :smack: Well, good luck to them anyway. Is a new referendum on the monarchy due any time soon? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/402 "2014-07-31T12:10:25Z")
Either way, if the Scots do go their own way, is the English establishment permitted to execute George Robertson? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/403 "2014-08-02T01:48:40Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > 😕 I don’t think the English flag does have the St. Andrew’s Cross, does it? [The UK flag certainly does](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Specification), yes. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand the bit about it being what the Australian Republican campaign has been waiting for, so I have this horrible feeling of missing out on something very obvious and being stupid. :smack: Well, good luck to them anyway. Is a new referendum on the monarchy due any time soon? Part of the republican campaign is for a change to the Australian flag. Our flag includes the Union Jack. If the UJ gets changed, we will either have to keep the old UJ on our flag, I would assume unacceptable, or change it to the new UK flag - in which case we may as well change it to something completely Australian while we’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/404 "2014-08-02T02:17:19Z")
Anyone want to see video of a SNP campaign rally? ([NSFW language](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDTb819BZS4)) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/405 "2014-08-02T11:47:51Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Anyone want to see video of a SNP campaign rally? ([NSFW language](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDTb819BZS4)) 😃 “Tennants Super Lager” right enough 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/406 "2014-08-02T12:08:21Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What I want to know is: Why the fuck are they allowing 16 and 17-yr-olds to vote in this? Don’t they know that boys that age are the most useless, most stupid, and most likely to vote the way they think will piss off the most people, tossers on the planet? When the US allowed 18-yr-olds to vote I thought it was ill-advised, and I was 18 at the time. Cynical answer: because 16- and 17-year-olds are more likely to support change than older people, and less likely to be informed. Of course, there are good reasons for it, too. > [@Askance](#): > > [The UK flag certainly does](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Specification), yes. Yes, but the _English_ flag doesn’t, which I assume was the point. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/407 "2014-08-02T13:16:12Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > “Tennants Super Lager” right enough 😃 Buckie probably. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/408 "2014-08-02T13:19:32Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > [The UK flag certainly does](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Specification), yes. > Part of the republican campaign is for a change to the Australian flag. Our flag includes the Union Jack. If the UJ gets changed, we will either have to keep the old UJ on our flag, I would assume unacceptable, or change it to the new UK flag - in which case we may as well change it to something completely Australian while we’re at it. At first I agreed, but then I realised that if the UK reverted to the red and white jack (or even to the flag of St George or something else if the North of Ireland voted to join the Republic (a possibility if Scotland leaves) then rather than having the flag of an independent nation on the Aussie and NZ flags, it becaomes merely an historical marker of the origins of the country (do you think they would feel compelled to remove the Union Jack from the Hawaii State Flag if Scotland left.) It might well detoxify the flag problem! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/409 "2014-08-03T14:13:00Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Cynical answer: because 16- and 17-year-olds are more likely to support change than older people, and less likely to be informed. There was a poll a good while ago that suggested that the then 16-17 year old (potential) voters were more inclined to “No” than expected. But it is an untested demographic. I’m curious as to what the turnout at that age will be. > [@](#): > > Of course, there are good reasons for it, too. I do think that if you have the right to marry at 16, and to enter into a legal contract (although there are caveats here I think for under 18s - along the lines that “Is this a contract that an older person would freely enter”) you should be able to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/410 "2014-08-03T16:20:42Z")
The topic of lowering the qualification age for the franchise is a whole different one, but we don’t trust them to buy a drink, or a cigarette, run a company, make a hire-purchase agreement, buy a gun or drive a car, so why should we trust them with the franchise? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/411 "2014-08-03T16:29:34Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The topic of lowering the qualification age for the franchise is a whole different one, but we don’t trust them to buy a drink, or a cigarette, run a company, make a hire-purchase agreement, buy a gun or drive a car, so why should we trust them with the franchise? Because all the things you list can have a very negative effect in the wrong hands, but giving a small percentage extra of the population responsibility is good practice. Nothing can harm them in voting unless they stab themselves with a pencil. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/412 "2014-08-03T18:18:39Z")
On the topic of changing the flag: according to Wikipedia, the College of Arms has stated there would be no need to alter the flag if Scotland votes Yes, so I guess it’s back to the drawing board for Australia. It would be a pain if they changed it - apart from the fact that it’s a cultural icon, there’s all the shoes/backpacks/shirts/pants/bedspreads/whatever sold over here that would be “wrong”, so to speak. Plus, [these suggestions](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/will-this-be-the-uks-new-flag/284234/) are awful. Especially that pastels-over-black one . . . ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/413 "2014-08-03T19:41:44Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The topic of lowering the qualification age for the franchise is a whole different one, but we don’t trust them to buy a drink, or a cigarette, run a company, make a hire-purchase agreement, buy a gun or drive a car, so why should we trust them with the franchise? The legal age of capacity in Scotland is 16. OK, buying booze in an off-licence or pub is 18 (lower in a restaurant though), cigs are only recently bumped to 18 from 16, driving is 17, and I think 15 is the minimum age for a firearms cert, and you can get married without parental consent at 16. 16 sounds fine to me for voting. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/414 "2014-08-03T22:38:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > At first I agreed, but then I realised that if the UK reverted to the red and white jack (or even to the flag of St George or something else if the North of Ireland voted to join the Republic (a possibility if Scotland leaves) then rather than having the flag of an independent nation on the Aussie and NZ flags, it becaomes merely an historical marker of the origins of the country (do you think they would feel compelled to remove the Union Jack from the Hawaii State Flag if Scotland left.) > > It might well detoxify the flag problem! The UK cannot “revert” to a flag it never had. Frankly your confusion over flags seems very similar to your confusion over the feelings of those in Scotland, which is something you seem to talk with authority on but to anyone who knows anything even slightly about the country can see, you do with a hideous amount of bias. > [@PaulParkhead](#): > > So, more like “the zeal of the newly converted” is what you’re saying, yes? Maybe, I suppose. I’m not sure it’s such a terrible thing, though. > > As to the various campaigns, well, I’m 42 years old and have lived in Scotland for 32 of those years (the others in England and the USA). I’d say you have about 30% of people who are and have always been nationalists and would vote “yes” regardless of any arguments presented. These folks are the ones most likely to blame the English for Scotland’s faults, although the don’t all feel that way. > > Then you have about 30% hardcore unionists who will vote “no” whatever happens. They probably like the English. > > For the 40% of us in the middle, English-bashing is something we do at football matches only. That sounds about right. As with pretty much all votes it is all about the undecided ones. Unfortunately pretty much all of my Mother’s side of the family are of the “England is the source of pretty much every problem in Scotland ever” camp. I’ve had years, far longer than Pjen’s tiny ten, of being told by people in Scotland about how the country of my birth does nothing but try to fuck over Scotland, to the point where it almost created a rather large rift in the family (my Sister and I are the only blood relatives on that side that grew up outside Scotland). I’ve many times been the subject of racist abuse in Scotland due to my accent (I’m ginger haired, if I kept my mouth shut I’d fit in perfectly), but I have also felt some wonderful hospitality. These are the two camps and it is a fool that tries to pretend that the sizeable “England is the Devil” camp doesn’t exist. For the record, I am a forty year old male that was born in Derbyshire and grew up in Warwickshire, to a father from Sheffield and a Mother from Renfrew. Most of my Mother’s side of the family, who are all Catholics, live in East Kilbride, although I do have relatives all over, from Edinburgh to the Highlands. If Scotland goes independent I will definitely take out citizenship, which apparently I will qualify for, just to annoy those that I wrote about up there ^^^^. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/415 "2014-08-03T22:48:02Z")
I think you’re being needlessly picky about casual use of terminology. The United Kingdom is the successor state to the Kingdom of England. England didn’t disappear into nothing and the U.K. didn’t spring forth from nothing. (Otherwise, among other things, the current monarch wouldn’t be Elizabeth II). So “revert” isn’t egregiously wrong, especially in an informal discussion. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/416 "2014-08-03T22:58:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you’re being needlessly picky about casual use of terminology. The United Kingdom is the successor state to the Kingdom of England. England didn’t disappear into nothing and the U.K. didn’t spring forth from nothing. (Otherwise, among other things, the current monarch wouldn’t be Elizabeth II). So “revert” isn’t egregiously wrong, especially in an informal discussion. You are kind of missing the point that the UK minus Scotland isn’t England. I’m assuming that Pjen means a red and white flag with two crosses on it, a flag that has never existed up until now (that I know of) so it is pretty hard to revert to it. That assumption is based on the mention of the St George’s Cross in brackets in his post. If he can casually get such basic things wrong then frankly I don’t think it is too strange to think about what else he has got wrong. I know on my part I take everything he says with a pinch of salt as it is extremely different to my experience in four decades of having to deal with the people he seems to think doesn’t exist. ETA: One of my earliest memories of being in Scotland was playing in Bank Park, East Kilbride and a grown man shouting at me, calling me (amongst other things) a “wee English bastard”. I must have been about five. That really stuck. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/417 "2014-08-03T23:50:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The United Kingdom is the successor state to the Kingdom of England. And the successor state to the Kingdom of Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/418 "2014-08-03T23:57:52Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > One of my earliest memories of being in Scotland was playing in Bank Park, East Kilbride and a grown man shouting at me, calling me (amongst other things) a “wee English bastard”. I must have been about five. That really stuck. You have a lot of stories about being hassled for being English. I know loads of English folk who have lived in Scotland for a long time, and to be honest, it hasn’t been a great hardship for them. Have you considered it might be, well, _you_ that is the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/419 "2014-08-04T05:49:50Z")
I know the history of the flag very well thank you. I carelessly used the wrong word. I think people knew what I meant. I repeat, I have had no animosity from Scottish friends, probably because of attitude. Being an SNP member and sharing their beliefs certainly helps. Also, I am never defensive about being English, but aside from Rugby and Cricket, I have little interest in nationality. In a previous incarnation I employed many Scottish nurses in the eighties when England had a shortage and Scotland had a surfeit with mass unemployment. Consequently I know the culture and do not make those faux pas that mark out the country club, income, settler English. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/420 "2014-08-04T16:22:39Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > And the successor state to the Kingdom of Scotland. And the Kingdom of Ireland. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=22)