# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/441 "2014-08-07T16:16:18Z")
With the jockeying over the next election I expect the YES campaign to go dirty- pressing the idea of ten more years of Tory rule. They need to scare Labour female voters. Labour voters voting NO are like turkeys voting for Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/442 "2014-08-07T17:02:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > IN 2010 with the South in economic crisis the split was 55/36 on whether there would be reunification by 2021. > > [Belfast Telegraph exclusive poll on United Ireland | BelfastTelegraph.co.uk](http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/belfast-telegraph-exclusive-poll-on-united-ireland-28534729.html) > > A swing of 10% would equalise this. > > Not unthinkable before say 2030 or 2040. It sure is unthinkable, if the younger generation are anything like [this guy (a Catholic)](http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/golf/www/release/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_med_image/article_images/rory_gmac.jpg) > [@Pjen](#): > > I identify as European and English and less so as British. My ancestors for many generations are English to the core except for one gg grandparent who came across in the famine. > > I do not identify as Scottish at all, but feel warm towards their way of running a country whether under the previous liblab coalition or under the current SNP government. > > I am a long term believer in integration through Europe under the principle of subsidiarity- with as many as possible laws delegated to the lowest level. Wow. So the SNP stuff is all pretty much a red herring - you are considering Scottish independence as simply a stepping stone to joining the EU. I guess that explains your lack of familiarity/interest in Scottish culture (other than having a thing for Scottish nurses). How does it help the Scots to switch from being a big fish in a small pond (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) 😛 to being a small fish in a big pond (the EU)? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/443 "2014-08-07T17:02:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > With the jockeying over the next election I expect the YES campaign to go dirty- pressing the idea of ten more years of Tory rule. This is a stupid line to take. Scots need to think in terms not of 5 or 10 years but 50 and 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/444 "2014-08-07T17:16:21Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > It sure is unthinkable, if the younger generation are anything like [this guy (a Catholic)](http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/golf/www/release/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_med_image/article_images/rory_gmac.jpg) That is one voice. Quite possibly not representative. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/445 "2014-08-07T17:22:16Z")
[QUOTE=LC Strawhouse;17618207 Wow. So the SNP stuff is all pretty much a red herring - you are considering Scottish independence as simply a stepping stone to joining the EU. I guess that explains your lack of familiarity/interest in Scottish culture (other than having a thing for Scottish nurses). How does it help the Scots to switch from being a big fish in a small pond (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) 😛 to being a small fish in a big pond (the EU)?[/QUOTE] The SNP believes in independence and follows a Social Democratic set of policies. I happen to agree with both. I supported the previous social democratic politics LibLab government who were not in favour of independence. There will never be a Conservative government. Suits me. Scotland is already part of the EU and will effectively remain so even after independence for most matters while re-entry is negotiated. What is important is that Scotland can start making decisions about its own laws in all fields, not just those devolved by the UK. I don’t know where you get the idea I have no familiarity with Scottish Culture. Just an assumption on your part with no evidence to support it. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/446 "2014-08-07T17:36:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The SNP believes in independence and follows a Social Democratic set of policies. I happen to agree with both. I supported the previous social democratic politics LibLab government who were not in favour of independence. There will never be a Conservative government. Suits me. > > Scotland is already part of the EU and will effectively remain so even after independence for most matters while re-entry is negotiated. > > What is important is that Scotland can start making decisions about its own laws in all fields, not just those devolved by the UK. Let me re-phrase. How does it help the Scots to make their own decisions about its own laws in all fields, by switching from being a powerful and semi-autonomous EU member (the U.K.) to being a tiny EU member? > [@Pjen](#): > > I don’t know where you get the idea I have no familiarity with Scottish Culture. Just an assumption on your part with no evidence to support it. I know it’s a cheap shot, but you actually did say “In a previous incarnation I employed many Scottish nurses in the eighties when England had a shortage and Scotland had a surfeit with mass unemployment. Consequently I know the culture and do not make those faux pas that mark out the country club, income, settler English.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/447 "2014-08-08T01:10:37Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Wow. So the SNP stuff is all pretty much a red herring - you are considering Scottish independence as simply a stepping stone to joining the EU. It seems like it’s more of a red herring and the actual issue is not-Toryism. So an independent Scotland is just a way not to have the Tories in charge, and I guess secession is easier than convincing the mass of the British electorate to go Labour. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/448 "2014-08-08T01:50:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems like it’s more of a red herring and the actual issue is not-Toryism. So an independent Scotland is just a way not to have the Tories in charge, and I guess secession is easier than convincing the mass of the British electorate to go Labour. That’s certainly possible. If someone’s identity is based on giving the finger to the Tories (using Scottish politics as their vehicle), carrying that sort of grudge really can’t be healthy. And what did the Scots do to deserve that sort of pot-stirring English settler anyway? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/449 "2014-08-08T04:47:23Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Let me re-phrase. How does it help the Scots to make their own decisions about its own laws in all fields, by switching from being a powerful and semi-autonomous EU member (the U.K.) to being a tiny EU member? You are falling for UKIP propaganda. Each EU state has considerable latitude over its own laws. On the other hand, Scotland being part of the UK severely limits the ability of the Scottish Government from changing its laws. With devolution we have total control of our NHS (Run very differently from England and now with higher pay, free prescriptions, universal NHS dentistry), Education (Ditto with Scottish teachers not striking and very well paid), and no stupid messing with exams to impress Daily Mail readers, Local Government, Criminal Law, Civil Law, Prison policy, Broadcasting etc. Currently neither the UK nor the EU can interfere with laws passed in Scotland save at the very extreme. In all these areas Scotland is considerably different from England AND from every other EU country. But currently there are areas- fiscal policy, driving laws, defence, international relations and other areas where the EU has limited control but the UK has total control. It is these powers that are being queried- why should a largely left wing Scotland be forced to have right wing (Conservative and English Labour chasing the English vote) policies forced on it? Now people may decide that they are too scared this time to break away in order to achieve this independence, but as with the Irish question, eventually I believe that both will result in independence for One Ireland and Scotland. Now if real federalisation had been achieved in the nineteen seventies with reserved powers for the constituent states, then this may be avoided, but this was messed up on purpose then, and that still rankles. Basically it comes down to the question raised by the Proclaimers- “I can’t understand why we let someone else rule our land!” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/450 "2014-08-08T05:41:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > With devolution we have total control of our NHS (Run very differently from England and now with higher pay, free prescriptions, universal NHS dentistry), Education (Ditto with Scottish teachers not striking and very well paid), and no stupid messing with exams to impress Daily Mail readers, Local Government, Criminal Law, Civil Law, Prison policy, Broadcasting etc. Currently neither the UK nor the EU can interfere with laws passed in Scotland save at the very extreme. In all these areas Scotland is considerably different from England AND from every other EU country. But currently there are areas- fiscal policy, driving laws, defence, international relations and other areas where the EU has limited control but the UK has total control. It is these powers that are being queried… To the extent that Scotland can increase its taxes (and has chosen not to) and spend the proceeds, it most definitely has leverage over fiscal policy. I dunno, but I suspect driving laws are negotiable. Scotland could obtain limited power in international relations, much like US states have when they send trade delegations abroad. Heck, certain US municipalities pass symbolic resolutions though of course nobody pays attention to them. That leaves defense. If Scotland was interested, it could consider bargaining for the equivalent of a national guard, which would basically take on peacekeeping duties if it felt like it. Complementing its admittedly proscribed international relations. What would remain national is currency and in practice the bulk of defense and international relations. But if Scotland wanted to put its own spin on the preceding they could within an united Britain. Much like they can raise taxes right now. I fail to see how having your own postage stamps and banknotes enhances your level of national awesome. Plenty of lame-o countries have those. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/451 "2014-08-08T06:36:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > To the extent that Scotland can increase its taxes (and has chosen not to) and spend the proceeds, it most definitely has leverage over fiscal policy. I dunno, but I suspect driving laws are negotiable. Scotland could obtain limited power in international relations, much like US states have when they send trade delegations abroad. Heck, certain US municipalities pass symbolic resolutions though of course nobody pays attention to them. > > That leaves defense. If Scotland was interested, it could consider bargaining for the equivalent of a national guard, which would basically take on peacekeeping duties if it felt like it. Complementing its admittedly proscribed international relations. > > What would remain national is currency and in practice the bulk of defense and international relations. But if Scotland wanted to put its own spin on the preceding they could within an united Britain. Much like they can raise taxes right now. > I fail to see how having your own postage stamps and banknotes enhances your level of national awesome. Plenty of lame-o countries have those. I am not sure where you live, but how would you feel if your neighboring country made many of your laws for you despite the fact that they were of a very different political cast than your country? Oh, and they want to continue keeping their nuclear weapons in your waters even though the overwhelming majority of the country wishes to be nuclear free. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/452 "2014-08-08T06:41:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am not sure where you live, but how would you feel if your neighboring country made many of your laws for you despite the fact that they were of a very different political cast than your country? > > Oh, and they want to continue keeping their nuclear weapons in your waters even though the overwhelming majority of the country wishes to be nuclear free. Welcome to the US. Enjoy your stay. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/453 "2014-08-08T08:28:54Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Welcome to the US. Enjoy your stay. What has the US to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/454 "2014-08-08T09:02:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What has the US to do with it? I think he’s alluding to the fact that the US is made of wildly different political cultures which can outvote each other. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/455 "2014-08-08T10:41:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am not sure where you live, but how would you feel if your neighboring country made many of your laws for you despite the fact that they were of a very different political cast than your country? > > Oh, and they want to continue keeping their nuclear weapons in your waters even though the overwhelming majority of the country wishes to be nuclear free. Do you expect an Independent Scotland not to apply to join the EU? If so, perhaps you should lobby Alex Salmond and the majority of the Nationalist movement who seem quite willing to surrender sovereignty to the EU. Or is this surrender of sovereignty to the EU acceptable because in many instances it leads to some lovely progressive laws? At certain times the majority of Scots are against giving benefits to single mums, are against giving benefits to immigrants, and are in favour of castrating paedophiles with a rusty knife. At times the majority opinion just sucks. I do know that the vast majority of Scots dont give a toss about nuclear weapons either for or against. If you are to play the populist card then do so consistently. We shall both welcome the day when the new “majority vote” loving Scotland votes against allowing in Muslims, bans Orangemen, admits no Romanians and vetoes funding for State supported heroin users. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/456 "2014-08-08T12:13:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > With devolution we have total control of our NHS (Run very differently from England and now with higher pay, free prescriptions, universal NHS dentistry), Education (Ditto with Scottish teachers not striking and very well paid), and no stupid messing with exams to impress Daily Mail readers, Local Government, Criminal Law, Civil Law, Prison policy, Broadcasting etc. Currently neither the UK nor the EU can interfere with laws passed in Scotland save at the very extreme. In all these areas Scotland is considerably different from England AND from every other EU country. But currently there are areas- fiscal policy, driving laws, defence, international relations and other areas where the EU has limited control but the UK has total control. It is these powers that are being queried- why should a largely left wing Scotland be forced to have right wing (Conservative and English Labour chasing the English vote) policies forced on it? It could also have the exact opposite effect you intend. If you give up on the U.K. and become an isolated EU country for the sake of a few left wing causes du jour, that could simply allow the country’s corrupt society elites to run amok at ordinary peoples’ expense when it comes to economics, landowning, etc. (Ireland is a prime example when it comes to economics and social issues.) Also, you have great faith in the French, Belgians and Germans (much less culturally similar nations to Scotland) being better partners than the English, but you may note that anti-EU parties made the greatest gains across Europe last time around. It would be pretty dismal if an “independent” Scotland will realize they have to declare independence once again. I won’t even get started on how Scots may not be as left-wing as you think, and the trendy right-wing/left-wing causes keep changing with the fashions anyway. Scotland is in a pretty enviable situation right now (corrupt landowners excluded) - it’s got a semi-autonomous status among a few culturally similar states in one of the most powerful EU nations - yes I know there are exceptions but in many cases it can pretty much act British, European or independent as it sees fit. > [@Pjen](#): > > Basically it comes down to the question raised by the Proclaimers- “I can’t understand why we let someone else rule our land!” Are you a modern day Lawrence of Arabia, guv’nor? ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/457 "2014-08-08T12:33:03Z")
Ironically enough the one thing the YES faction is not wishing to do is change who rules their land. They plan on retaining the Queen on the throne following independence. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/458 "2014-08-08T15:23:05Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > Ironically enough the one thing the YES faction is not wishing to do is change who rules their land. They plan on retaining the Queen on the throne following independence. Being Head of State doesn’t necessarily equate to ruling. Scotland would be like Australia, Canada and New Zealand, but without having a Governor-General as vice-regent. So posty-indy the Queen now has two Prime Ministers directly “advising” her. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/459 "2014-08-08T15:46:53Z")
Obligatory \*Trainspotting \*quote: > [@Ewan MacGregor's character](#): > > It’s SHITE being Scottish! We’re the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilisation. Some hate the English. I don’t. They’re just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONISED by wankers. Can’t even find a decent culture to be colonised BY. We’re ruled by effete assholes. It’s a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won’t make any fucking difference! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/460 "2014-08-08T15:59:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > IN 2010 with the South in economic crisis the split was 55/36 on whether there would be [Irish] reunification by 2021. > > [Belfast Telegraph exclusive poll on United Ireland | BelfastTelegraph.co.uk](http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/belfast-telegraph-exclusive-poll-on-united-ireland-28534729.html) > > A swing of 10% would equalise this. > > Not unthinkable before say 2030 or 2040. I have it on good authority that it will be in 2024: [Irish Unification of 2024 | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Irish_Unification_of_2024) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=24)