# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/521 "2014-08-14T16:32:26Z")
Just look at Northern Ireland to find lots of Scots who are the best kind of “right-wingers” - mostly damn fine, regular people who know how to take care of themselves. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/522 "2014-08-14T16:58:25Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’d maintain that Scottish elites are not the slightest bit left-wing, and the fact that there’s some highly visible left-wing activity in some urban centers is a complete red herring. > > I’ve already mentioned the positively medieval land ownership patterns, as well as historical acts like the Highland Clearances. And according to [this article](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-22976909), which also reports that “Scotland’s wealthiest households are 273-times better off than the most deprived”, > Of course, some find ways to blame all of this on the English, but my crystal ball says that an independent Scotland would turn into a grim little playground for the wealthiest Scots. We live in a democracy where policy is made by the Scottish Government. Landed interests may have an influence, but no more than elsewhere. I think we should just go by where the votes went last time and the times before- to left of centre parties. Aside from the southern fringe there is a derisory vote for right of centre parties., even with PR which should encourage the minority vote to come out to pick the winnable seats. Anything else other than polls or opinion polls is meaningless speculation and special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/523 "2014-08-14T16:59:57Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Just look at Northern Ireland to find lots of Scots who are the best kind of “right-wingers” - mostly damn fine, regular people who know how to take care of themselves. 🆒 Those would be “Scots” descended from real Scots several generations ago who have grown up and been educated in a different polity. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/524 "2014-08-14T17:06:47Z")
Reading some of the above comments I pick up a whiff of English/British colonialism. " In these lesser realms the minions may vote in a particular manner, but they really don’t understand the situation and if they could only see it like we do, they would realise how wrong they were." An attitude prevalent in every decolonisation from the USA through the Raj, Africa and Ireland. The natives do not know what is in their best interests! ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/525 "2014-08-14T17:27:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Reading some of the above comments I pick up a whiff of English/British colonialism. > > " In these lesser realms the minions may vote in a particular manner, but they really don’t understand the situation and if they could only see it like we do, they would realise how wrong they were." > > An attitude prevalent in every decolonisation from the USA through the Raj, Africa and Ireland. > > The natives do not know what is in their best interests! LOL! That accusation is rich with irony, considering that you are an Englishman who has lived in Scotland for a short time and (Lawrence of Arabia style, I guess) are already campaigning to make radical changes to Scottish society on their behalf. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/526 "2014-08-14T17:31:54Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > LOL! That accusation is rich with irony, considering that you are an Englishman who has lived in Scotland for a short time and (Lawrence of Arabia style, I guess) are already campaigning to make radical changes to Scottish society on their behalf. And, if no-one in Scotland had ever considered the question of independence until **Pjen** arrived to show us the error of our ways, you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/527 "2014-08-14T17:33:49Z")
Pjen, your last post seems to be suggesting an attitude where you are attempting to shut debate down, as if anyone non-Scottish who is not in favour of Scotland going independent is somehow inherently sinister. Do you not think non-Scottish anti-independenceness (!) can be a legitimate point of view? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/528 "2014-08-14T19:24:41Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > And, if no-one in Scotland had ever considered the question of independence until **Pjen** arrived to show us the error of our ways, you might have a point. The thing is, I would naturally feel extremely uncomfortable about moving somewhere new and then encouraging big changes in their status quo (whether it’s done in the service of “right wing” or “left wing” causes is unimportant.) It would feel as icky as excitedly encouraging another couple to break up their marriage. If other people feel no such discomfort - maybe their actions have more in common with colonialism than they like to think? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/529 "2014-08-14T19:41:43Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The thing is, I would naturally feel extremely uncomfortable about moving somewhere new and then encouraging big changes in their status quo … I wouldn’t It’s up to the listeners to decide how much credence to give me. Maybe someone will try to correct my “ignorance”, maybe others will shun me. It’s all okay with me, so long as they don’t decide my opinion is worth a beat down. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/530 "2014-08-14T19:52:42Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > If other people feel no such discomfort - maybe their actions have more in common with colonialism than they like to think? **Pjen** , to use a dread term, is a stakeholder in Scotland. He’s lived here for years, he’s as much right to a voice as anyone. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/531 "2014-08-14T20:01:39Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > **Pjen** , to use a dread term, is a stakeholder in Scotland. He’s lived here for years, he’s as much right to a voice as anyone. Fair enough, might be a personal thing. I’m a Canadian (with Scottish family ties), now living in the U.S., but I’d never dream of becoming a radical socialist or a Tea Partier, even if I’m in one of those communities. Just feels wrong somehow. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/532 "2014-08-14T20:18:45Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > The thing is, I would naturally feel extremely uncomfortable about moving somewhere new and then encouraging big changes in their status quo (whether it’s done in the service of “right wing” or “left wing” causes is unimportant.) It would feel as icky as excitedly encouraging another couple to break up their marriage. > > If other people feel no such discomfort - maybe their actions have more in common with colonialism than they like to think? Why would I object to a person who lives in Scotland expressing his opinion on what happens in Scotland? **Pjen** has a vote and the right to speak on the subject just as much as I do. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/533 "2014-08-14T20:20:25Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Fair enough, might be a personal thing. I’m a Canadian (with Scottish family ties), now living in the U.S., but I’d never dream of becoming a radical socialist or a Tea Partier, even if I’m in one of those communities. Just feels wrong somehow. You have not been particularly shy about expressing your opinions here, though, something which, I must stress, doesn’t bother me in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/534 "2014-08-14T20:39:47Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > You have not been particularly shy about expressing your opinions here, though, something which, I must stress, doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Well, I have kept up close personal ties to Scotland and N.I. over the years so I do feel protective of the “Union” in many ways, and I think that making big changes to the status quo quite naturally invites more scrutiny and a higher burden of proof than maintaining the status quo. But my perspective is that of a concerned observer. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/535 "2014-08-14T21:34:09Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > LOL! That accusation is rich with irony, considering that you are an Englishman who has lived in Scotland for a short time and (Lawrence of Arabia style, I guess) are already campaigning to make radical changes to Scottish society on their behalf. I am entitled to my opinion. I believe in return of appropriate powers to the lowest level of government (subsidiarity) and have done so fo over five decades. I supported a united Ireland by agreement before it was popular and devolution for Scotland and Wales. I supported regional status for London and the regions and previously supported the Radcliffe Maude proposals for local government. My decade of living in Scotland has only made me more certain that devolution max is ideal and independence is not out of the question. As a resident in Scotland I am as entitled as anyone living here to make a political statement of value about the future of Scotland by campaigning and voting. This is inappropriate and not allowed for those who choose not to live here. You are suggesting a very strange form of reverse racism. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/536 "2014-08-14T21:35:32Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Pjen, your last post seems to be suggesting an attitude where you are attempting to shut debate down, as if anyone non-Scottish who is not in favour of Scotland going independent is somehow inherently sinister. Do you not think non-Scottish anti-independenceness (!) can be a legitimate point of view? Yes. But it is as meaningless as Brits complaining about who is elected US President. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/537 "2014-08-14T21:38:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > **Pjen** , to use a dread term, is a stakeholder in Scotland. He’s lived here for years, he’s as much right to a voice as anyone. Thank you. I have chosen to live here and bring up my children as Scots in Scottish schools and in Scottish culture. They go curling and skiing, support Scotland at Rugby (God help them) and enjoy all the benefits and drawbacks of a Scottish childhood. What more or less should I do? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/538 "2014-08-14T22:26:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > support Scotland at Rugby (God help them) Those poor kids ☹ I’m guessing they are far too young to have seen the good bits? > [@](#): > > What more or less should I do? You’ve invested more in the future of Scotland than I have. I was just born here, part of a very long line, and have no children. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/539 "2014-08-14T22:46:15Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Those poor kids ☹ I’m guessing they are far too young to have seen the good bits? > > You’ve invested more in the future of Scotland than I have. I was just born here, part of a very long line, and have no children. They were not born in 1999 when Wales denied us the Grand Slam, and Scotland actually won something. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/540 "2014-08-15T01:30:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Thank you. I have chosen to live here and bring up my children as Scots in Scottish schools and in Scottish culture. They go curling and skiing, support Scotland at Rugby (God help them) and enjoy all the benefits and drawbacks of a Scottish childhood. > > What more or less should I do? Fair enough - apologies for my choice of terms above. I’ll try to save that stuff for my trips to Firhill and Ibrox. :o [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=28)