# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/561 "2014-08-31T17:14:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > _One Woman_ — [Morgan Fairchild, ONE Magazine \No data found\ Cover Photo - United States](http://www.famousfix.com/p15653564/morgan-fairchild-one-magazine-united-states/p30945) :dubious: Clipboard error? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/562 "2014-08-31T19:37:05Z")
I opine that 50.1% is a ludicrous margin for an issue like this. Separation should be a multi-step and consensus building process. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/563 "2014-08-31T20:31:01Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I opine that 50.1% is a ludicrous margin for an issue like this. Separation should be a multi-step and consensus building process. It has been a multi-step process. Devo referendum -\> SNP gaining a majority in the Scottish Parliament and redeeming an election promise -\> indy referendum. What more do you want? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/564 "2014-08-31T21:00:26Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > :dubious: > > Clipboard error? 😃 Or the new face of Scottish Widows ads? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/565 "2014-08-31T22:22:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s a 15-year rule for UK expats voting in UK General Elections, I do wonder why something similar wasn’t attempted for expat Scots. Yep - and I’m going to reach that in November. There’s no reason at all why it couldn’t be all Scottish-born people or even just those with the fifteen year outside the UK rule. In my opinion there is one and only one explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/566 "2014-08-31T23:06:20Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yep - and I’m going to reach that in November. > > There’s no reason at all why it couldn’t be all Scottish-born people or even just those with the fifteen year outside the UK rule. In my opinion there is one and only one explanation. The question is “what is a Scottish person?” It is ill defined. I suspect that expats on the electoral role will be able to vote because they are treated as if they were still resident in their previous constituency- they just appear as registered at their last address- same as residents in psychiatric hospital who are recorded as being at their last address before admission. AFAIK there is no mark against these people to say that they are on the register for a special reason, merely that they need to declare that when registering as an expat or as a resident of a mental hospital. Of course this excludes Scots who are expats in England, Wales and NI who already have their UK vote there. Building a separate register would have been difficult with people having to prove where they were born if Scottish Birth were a criteria, or when they were resident if residence was the criteria. And even then Rod Stewart would not be able to vote because as a Plastic Scot (born Essex, never lived in Scotland but proud to be “Scottish”) he would still not qualify. The idea of building a special register was seen as cumbersome and expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/567 "2014-08-31T23:15:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And even then Rod Stewart would not be able to vote because as a Plastic Scot (born Essex, never lived in Scotland but proud to be “Scottish”) he would still not qualify. Nitpicking, but he was born in London. He lives in Essex now. And “Plastic Scot” isn’t fair. His father was born in Edinburgh, and moved to London not too long before Stewart was born. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/568 "2014-09-01T00:52:54Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > :dubious: > > Clipboard error? 😃 I’m sure he meant to put it here: [What's the first thing you think of when I say the name "Morgan Fairchild"? - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=732662) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/569 "2014-09-01T06:04:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The question is “what is a Scottish person?” It is ill defined. I suspect that expats on the electoral role will be able to vote because they are treated as if they were still resident in their previous constituency- they just appear as registered at their last address- same as residents in psychiatric hospital who are recorded as being at their last address before admission. AFAIK there is no mark against these people to say that they are on the register for a special reason, merely that they need to declare that when registering as an expat or as a resident of a mental hospital. > > Of course this excludes Scots who are expats in England, Wales and NI who already have their UK vote there. Building a separate register would have been difficult with people having to prove where they were born if Scottish Birth were a criteria, or when they were resident if residence was the criteria. Birth certificate. If it is good enough to get a passport … ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/570 "2014-09-01T07:36:06Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Birth certificate. If it is good enough to get a passport … No it is not. You need either a previous passport where your new photograph is recognisable as the same person as the previous passport, or a signature from another British Passport holder who is able to confirm both your identity and appearance. And a birth certificate or other evidence of British citizenship. Anyone can get hold of birth certificates- that is how undercover police officers and other criminals set up false identities by requesting certificates for children who died in childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/571 "2014-09-01T07:56:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Nitpicking, but he was born in London. He lives in Essex now. And “Plastic Scot” isn’t fair. His father was born in Edinburgh, and moved to London not too long before Stewart was born. I would say that someone who is born of English and Scottish parents in England who has never lived in Scotland is to a certain level ‘plastic’, or at least there is an extreme plasticity in his identification as Scottish. The question is, who is part of the Scottish body politic. I am English (with a little Irish after the famine) with no Scottish blood at all. But I live in Scotland and have brought up my family here and am firmly part of Scottish society in a way that Rod Stewart can never be. In a decade of living here and watching Scottish news and other TV programmes, and reading Scottish papers I am aware of many cultural memes that are unknown to people living in England, however keen they are to be Scottish. Should we choose Independence I would have an absolute right to Scottish citizenship whereas Rod Stewart would have to make a special application. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/572 "2014-09-01T08:29:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Anyone can get hold of birth certificates- that is how undercover police officers and other criminals set up false identities by requesting certificates for children who died in childhood. True, it has been done this way before. But is this possible in the last several years in most of the developed world (kind of GQ)? ‘Undercover police officers and “other” criminals’ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/573 "2014-09-01T10:16:20Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > True, it has been done this way before. But is this possible in the last several years in most of the developed world (kind of GQ)? > > ‘Undercover police officers and “other” criminals’ 😃 They are more careful about issuing birth certificates for potentially living people than they were, but it is still possible with a little subterfuge. There are current cases where the legality of such acts by Undercover police infiltrating activist groups is being tested. Both the individuals and their handlers are at risk of being prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/574 "2014-09-01T13:30:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No it is not. You need either a previous passport where your new photograph is recognisable as the same person as the previous passport, or a signature from another British Passport holder who is able to confirm both your identity and appearance. And a birth certificate or other evidence of British citizenship. > > Anyone can get hold of birth certificates- that is how undercover police officers and other criminals set up false identities by requesting certificates for children who died in childhood. I was being somewhat glib. Ultimately all that is required is your birth certificate and one of your parents’. Your photo, used for the passport, then has to be countersigned by someone that claims to have known you for two years. The fact remains that this is perfectly doable and it is ridiculous that people from Scotland do not get a say, especially seeing as the Yes campaign say this about citizenship post-independence: > [@](#): > > The current Scottish Government has set out detailed plans for citizenship on independence. British citizens habitually resident in Scotland on independence will be considered Scottish citizens. This will include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another country. Scottish born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens. In other words, _they are going to have to do it anyway if they get independence_. The ignoring the beliefs of those that no longer live in Scotland is purely political and a disgrace. That the argument as to why is, apparently, it would cost too much is ridiculous. In the grand scheme of things the cost would be a drop in the ocean compared to the costs of independence. How about this: live in Scotland or have one of the approved types of ID if no longer live in Scotland (example: passport)? Or is that somehow magically too difficult as well? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/575 "2014-09-01T13:39:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would say that someone who is born of English and Scottish parents in England who has never lived in Scotland is to a certain level ‘plastic’, or at least there is an extreme plasticity in his identification as Scottish. > > The question is, who is part of the Scottish body politic. I am English (with a little Irish after the famine) with no Scottish blood at all. But I live in Scotland and have brought up my family here and am firmly part of Scottish society in a way that Rod Stewart can never be. In a decade of living here and watching Scottish news and other TV programmes, and reading Scottish papers I am aware of many cultural memes that are unknown to people living in England, however keen they are to be Scottish. > > Should we choose Independence I would have an absolute right to Scottish citizenship whereas Rod Stewart would have to make a special application. I’d agree regarding Rod Stewart as he touts his “Scottishness”. As someone with pretty much the same background I find it amusing when someone feels that way. I understand wanting to be close to that part of your background, but to only (apparently) go with one side is weird. Personally, I am one of those weird people that absolutely insists on being called British. Calling myself English or Scottish, ignoring the fact that neither of those are a legal nationality, would ignore the other side of my family. British is the best answer. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/576 "2014-09-01T13:59:07Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I was being somewhat glib. Ultimately all that is required is your birth certificate and one of your parents’. Your photo, used for the passport, then has to be countersigned by someone that claims to have known you for two years.enough Having just renewed three passports and having read the regulations, I can assure you that you are in error. The photograph has to be signed to say that it is a good likeness and the form must be signed by a third party to identify the person as someone known by them. A birth certificate is not enough. I am happy to give a cite to > **[Countersigning passport applications and photos](https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications)** > > Who can sign (countersign) passport photos and application forms and what they need to do ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/577 "2014-09-01T14:02:17Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > How about this: live in Scotland or have one of the approved types of ID if no longer live in Scotland (example: passport)? Or is that somehow magically too difficult as well? That may be your view but the Scottish and British Governments decided otherwise when formalising the rules for the election. It was not an SNP decision but an inter government agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/578 "2014-09-01T14:04:48Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’d agree regarding Rod Stewart as he touts his “Scottishness”. As someone with pretty much the same background I find it amusing when someone feels that way. I understand wanting to be close to that part of your background, but to only (apparently) go with one side is weird. > > Personally, I am one of those weird people that absolutely insists on being called British. Calling myself English or Scottish, ignoring the fact that neither of those are a legal nationality, would ignore the other side of my family. British is the best answer. On the contrary, I identify as English with a British passport. If we get independence I shall certainly apply for a Scottish passport as a back up. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/579 "2014-09-01T14:06:18Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > True, it has been done this way before. But is this possible in the last several years in most of the developed world (kind of GQ)? > > ‘Undercover police officers and “other” criminals’ 😃 I did not feel the need to quote “other”! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/580 "2014-09-01T15:09:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Having just renewed three passports and having read the regulations, I can assure you that you are in error. The photograph has to be signed to say that it is a good likeness and the form must be signed by a third party to identify the person as someone known by them. A birth certificate is not enough. > > I am happy to give a cite to > > [Countersigning passport applications and photos: When you must get a signature and who can sign - GOV.UK](https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications) You make it sound like it is two different people. Your website makes no such claim. I’ve always got the Parish Priest to do both. It also doesn’t get past the problem that if they are going to offer automatic citizenship based on where you were born, which they have said they are going to do, they are going to have to do this anyway. Something you seem to be conveniently ignoring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=30)