# Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356 "2014-01-21T12:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/81 "2014-02-03T20:11:25Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Yes, but that’s an if, depending on the terms for Scotland rejoining the EU. It does still seem likely. It’s not a big thing - it just grates on my sense of fairness that, in Scotland, everyone in the the EU can get tuition fees paid, except for the students from other parts of the UK, even though their parents pay more towards those subsidies and the extant buildings, etc, than anyone else in the EU apart from Scotland. Apparently this has led to more people in Northern Ireland asserting their right to identify as Irish citizens in order to avail of cheaper college in Scotland. This includes many within the community who might otherwise be uncomfortable being identified as Irish citizens. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/82 "2014-02-04T00:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Malden Capell > Quote: > Originally Posted by Bozuit View Post > Personally, I’ve got my fingers crossed that, if Scotland does get independence, English voters will move towards the left anyway. > What makes you hope that they would? The general impression is that Scotland is to the left of England. I don’t buy it myself, though. Think a credible centre-right party, not named the Tories, would clean up in Scotland. Just my feeling from living there 10 years - a lot of Tory hate but equally a load of small-c conservatism IME. Not a supporter of independence myself, for many reasons, (nearly voted Tory over it in the last election when I lived there, but bottled it at the polling station) but bottom line is similar to what Martin Hyde posted - such a separation demands a historic timeliness, an overwhelming case to be made - we’re light years away from those conditions prevailing IMO. I admire their taking a stand against the draining gravitational force wielded by the London city-state, and wish we could do similar in the North of England, but not to the extent of independence. Speaking of timeliness - a rosier economic climate would have put a far different complexion on the vote. The walloping recieved by Iceland, Ireland etc in the crash has rocked confidence (all over) at quite a deep level IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/83 "2014-02-04T00:12:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > No one north of Hadrian’s Wall is champing at the bit for King Franz?: [Franz von Bayern - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria) Fuck **him!** [Prince Michael of Albany!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Michael_of_Albany) ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/84 "2014-02-04T09:51:35Z")
Yeah, Scotland has plenty of conservatism but their perspective over the past 40 years or so is that the Conservative Party is actually the English Party. Scotland used to have its own conservative party - the Unionists, a descendant of the old Liberal Party - which were subsumed into the Conservatives in 1965. Something not unlike the relationship between the German CDU and the Bavarian CSU prevailed. Some have argued that Scottish conservatism may revive if the Unionist Party was reformed and the Conservatives disengaged. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/85 "2014-02-04T14:51:49Z")
Of course, the **last** King of Scotland was Idi Amin . . . did he leave any heirs? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/86 "2014-02-04T14:53:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, the **last** King of Scotland was Idi Amin . . . did he leave any heirs? Unfortunately, he ate them all. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/87 "2014-02-04T19:40:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Unfortunately, he ate them all. Ah, of course if he were Scottish, it wouldn’t be [as bad as it sounds](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0701229/quotes?item=qt0283901). Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/88 "2014-02-05T00:32:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, the **last** King of Scotland was Idi Amin . . . did he leave any heirs? See post 69. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/89 "2014-02-05T01:05:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > . . . and they can’t join the Euro without first having their own currency. Oopsy. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/90 "2014-02-05T10:03:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why not? In my rough layman’s understanding of the issue, there are criteria for joining that involve the status of one’s current currency, reserves and economic status, and actions you have to take to align your currency with the euro in order for transition not to perturb the wider Eurozone or crash your own economy. If you don’t control your currency, you can’t meet any of those criteria or perform those actions. If I may attempt a crude metaphor, it’s like trying to step from one speedboat to another - if you’re in control of one you can pull alongside the other and match speed. If you’re just a passenger, at best you’d have to hope that the two get within jumping distance and that you can then fling yourself headlong into the other boat without killing yourself or landing on someone. It is unlikely to end well. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/91 "2014-02-09T13:03:46Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > For many of us, being ‘British’ means something, on top of being English, or Scottish. It’s an emotional issue that cuts both ways. > > And for the Scots, it’s going to make a hug difference! They’ll be going from a country of 60 million people to a country of 5 million, they will have to relook at or rebuild all their public institutions and international unions, right down to who issues driving licences or how do they fund their health service or what kind of military will defend their country or will the EU even let them back in. It’s unpicking a united country that’s over 300 years old. Independence may be for the better or it may be for the worse, the arguments will rage on that one, but to flippantly ask if it’s going to make a big difference is a bit daft. Yes, I’m daft, but I wasn’t making any claims about whether Scots would have a lot of changes, just that the rest of the world would care very little whether Scotland had finally kicked out the English, the wonderful neighbors who raped and burned across Scotland after the last feeble attempt to restore the Stuarts there. Their crimes created the USA so far as I am concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/92 "2014-02-09T14:06:57Z")
I think some people are placing too much emphasis on ancient history such as the Stuarts, Bannockburn, etc. This is not _Braveheart_. That stuff has very little bearing on the contemporary question of Scottish separatism. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/93 "2014-02-09T14:57:07Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Yes, I’m daft, but I wasn’t making any claims about whether Scots would have a lot of changes, just that the rest of the world would care very little whether Scotland had finally kicked out the English, the wonderful neighbors who raped and burned across Scotland after the last feeble attempt to restore the Stuarts there. Their crimes created the USA so far as I am concerned. Honestly, this post is just silly. You do understand that no country can accept someone invading, with foreign assistance, and claiming to be king of the whole country (and Ireland), right? Especially when he wants to restore absolute monarchy? It’s always perplexing when people think a minority should be able to impose their will on a majority, and for the majority to use their power to win is some kind of bullying. Some people are just desperate to support “the little guy”, regardless of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/94 "2014-02-09T15:11:13Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I think some people are placing too much emphasis on ancient history such as the Stuarts, Bannockburn, etc. This is not _Braveheart_. That stuff has very little bearing on the contemporary question of Scottish separatism. Quite. And let’s note that there’s nothing in the 700-odd pages of the SNP’s policy document that says “We should be independent because the English are nasty, nasty people.” ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/95 "2014-02-09T17:55:13Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Yes, I’m daft, but I wasn’t making any claims about whether Scots would have a lot of changes, just that the rest of the world would care very little whether Scotland had finally kicked out the English, the wonderful neighbors who raped and burned across Scotland after the last feeble attempt to restore the Stuarts there. Their crimes created the USA so far as I am concerned. FFS, in the last few hundred years the Scottish have much more oppressed by their own homegrown upper class than they ever were by the English (read anything by Andy Wightman for some devastating critiques on this.) As for “kicking out the English” - the Union came about when England paid off Scotland’s debts after Scotland’s failed colony in Darien. Using pre-British stuff like the Stuarts to make an anti-British / anti-English case is just bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/96 "2014-02-09T18:30:32Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > the Union came about when England paid off Scotland’s debts after Scotland’s failed colony in Darien. While this is, like the others, not relevant to Scottish politics today, if I recall correctly, the Darien incident also involved an English conspiracy to make Scotland solely liable for the losses. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/97 "2014-02-09T19:02:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > While this is, like the others, not relevant to Scottish politics today, if I recall correctly, the Darien incident also involved an English conspiracy to make Scotland solely liable for the losses. There was no such conspiracy I’ve ever heard of. The English refused to invest in the scheme from the beginning and then refused to go to war with Spain of behalf of Scotland when things went south, but I can’t really say I blame them on either point. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/98 "2014-02-09T19:11:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > While this is, like the others, not relevant to Scottish politics today, if I recall correctly, the Darien incident also involved an English conspiracy to make Scotland solely liable for the losses. Not entirely. No doubt there were selfish reasons for why the English government failed to support the Darien Scheme, another was that King William was quite wary at the time of provoking a general war by upsetting Spain, and it was recognised by William - as King of England and Scotland - that the area the Darien Scheme took place on was Spanish territory. So he issued a general warning to all his subjects not to trade or correspond with any Darien colonists. Union didn’t take place because England and Scotland were doing terribly well as neighbours, or even because England was grasping for domination. England already dominated Scotland at that time economically and politically through the Union of the Crowns. The Union of Parliaments was brought about principally from fear of a Stuart restoration in Edinburgh would have wrecked the alliance against France. I recommend the book _The Union: England, Scotland and the Treaty of 1707_ by Michael Fry, who is in fact a Scots nationalist (although not of the SNP stripe). ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/99 "2014-02-09T19:19:04Z")
Missed the edit. I wanted to say that concern for the Succession was a concern shared by English and Scottish Unionists, but also Scots Unionists felt that Scotland could only become economically and politically progressive in Union with England. Also, unlike the English Parliament, where the Treaty was rushed through with barely a debate, the Scots were given plenty of time to debate and approve each clause of the Treaty, and we able to add more clauses protecting the Scottish economy, and protecting the established presbyterian Church. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356/100 "2014-02-09T19:29:32Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Not entirely. No doubt there were selfish reasons for why the English government failed to support the Darien Scheme, another was that King William was quite wary at the time of provoking a general war by upsetting Spain, and it was recognised by William - as King of England and Scotland - that the area the Darien Scheme took place on was Spanish territory. So he issued a general warning to all his subjects not to trade or correspond with any Darien colonists. Am I mistaken in thinking that the East India Company conspired to prevent the Scottish company from getting investment from anywhere outside Scotland, thus making the loss a catastrophe for Scotland’s national economy? Here’s what [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme) says: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In the face of opposition by English commercial interests, the Company of Scotland raised subscriptions in Amsterdam, Hamburg and London for the scheme.[5] For his part, King William III had given only lukewarm support to the whole Scottish colonial endeavour.[a] England was at war with France and hence did not want to offend Spain which claimed the territory as part of New Granada.[7] > > England was also under pressure from the English East India Company, who were keen to maintain their monopoly over English foreign trade.[8] \*\*It therefore forced the English and Dutch investors to withdraw. \*\ ***Next, the East India Company threatened legal action on the grounds that the Scots had no authority from the king to raise funds outside the English realm, and obliged the promoters to refund subscriptions to the Hamburg investors. This left no source of finance but Scotland itself.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotlands-referendum-on-independence-18-sept-2014/679356.md?page=6)