# Scots, Irish, St.Patrick **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692 "2004-03-16T19:44:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/41 "2004-03-17T22:26:28Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Which is why I said that there was no longer any such thing. Sorry people, but if you are born and raised in America then you are American. You don’t get to co-opt other nationalities as a one-day party piece, there’s a bit more to it than that. I think you’re missing the point. Very few people in the US would claim that their _nationality_ is Irish simply because their great-grandparents were born in Ireland or what not. I’ve never met anyone here who claimed that, and I have little doubt that if a person did everyone would think it very odd. Rather, when someone in the US says they’re “Irish”, or “Scotch-Irish” or whatever, they’re referring to their _ethnicity_. I don’t know what it’s like in the UK, but here nationality and ethnicity are two distinct concepts, and “American” isn’t considered an ethnicity (unless you’re an American Indian). I can understand that when someone from Ireland meets an American who says “hey, I’m Irish too” the Irish person may well be thinking “uhh, no, you’re not” but the American is using the term in a different, but valid, way. And, on preview, what **TitoBenito** said. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/42 "2004-03-18T01:19:50Z")
“Scotch” is commonly used to refer to people from Scotland, so I think it’s wrong to say it’s wrong, but it’s enlightening to discover that it’s fallen into disfavor in Scotland. Here’s a good summary from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > Usage Note: Scottish is the full, original form of the adjective. Scots is an old Scottish variant. Scotch is an English contraction of Scottish that came into use in Scotland as well for a time (as in Burns’s “O thou, my Muse! guid auld Scotch drink!”) but subsequently fell into disfavor there. In the interest of civility, forms involving Scotch are best avoided in reference to people; designations formed with Scots are most common (Scot, Scotsman, or Scotswoman), but those involving the full form Scottish are sometimes found in more formal contexts. Scotch-Irish is the most commonly used term for the descendants of Scots who migrated to North America, but lately Scots-Irish has begun to gain currency among those who know that Scotch is considered offensive in Scotland. There is, however, no sure rule for referring to things, since the history of variation in the use of these words has left many expressions in which the choice is fixed, such as Scotch broth, Scotch whisky, Scottish rite, and Scots Guards. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/43 "2004-03-18T01:20:35Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > . . . its kinda funny that way , part of the confusion regarding passports , was that I knew I needed one for entry into a foreign country , and as a convience into the States . . . Ahem. From a Canadian perspective, the United States is a foreign country (and vice versa) > [@Declan](#): > > . . . but not for the birth country. Well, an Irish citizen is entitled to enter Ireland whether or not he has a passport, and (presumably) a Canadian citizen is likewise entitled to enter Canada. But the Catch-22 is that to exercise this right you have to be able to demonstrate that you are a Canadian citizen, and an Ontario driver’s licence certainly doesn’t do that. Anybody ask you your nationality when you applied for a licence? Thought not. I hold a Western Australia drivers licence, but I am not Australian. And, when you applied for a copy of **Declan** ’s birth certificate, did anybody ask you to prove that you were **Declan**? Thought not again. The convenient and usual way of proving your citizenship is with a passport; it’s pretty much the only document that both identifies you _and_ confirms your nationality. If you can prove it by other means then, yes, they will let you in, but you’ll have a hell of a job persuading them to accept your proof. And part of the reason they’ll be suspicious is that they’ll be thinking “Hmm . . . if this guy claims to be a Canadian citizen, why the hell hasn’t he bothered to get a passport?” > [@Declan](#): > > As for the airline refusing entry , thats a new one for me. Like I said , I thought it had to do with foreign countrys. Airlines generally won’t carry you on an international flight if they think there’s a risk that you’ll be refused entry at the destination, because (a) they’re stuck with the cost of bringing you back again, or bringing you to some third country which will accept you, and (b) many countries fiine airlines and shipping lines for bringin in attempted entrants who are not properly documented. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/44 "2004-03-18T17:14:40Z")
> [@chula](#): > > “Scotch” is commonly used to refer to people from Scotland, so I think it’s wrong to say it’s wrong, but it’s enlightening to discover that it’s fallen into disfavor in Scotland. Hmmm. There are other words that are commonly used to refer to other peoples, historically too, but that doesn’t make them right. Some examples would be: Paki, Gipsy, Red Indian. And I can think of worse ones. I can’t think of any reason why the word ‘Scotch’ has particularly fallen from favour. There’s no obvious negative connotations (apart from in the minds of abstainers perhaps). But the fact is it has. It’s usually common courtsey, all things being equal, to call people by the name they wish to be called. Ignoring that wish is usually taken as an insult, not matter the intent. As to the point that **Amok** and **TitoBenito** make. Granted, I’m aware that the words mean different things to Americans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean a whole lot more to the nationals of the country. and we don’t care much to see them redefined. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/45 "2004-03-18T18:17:53Z")
I’ll point out, as I always do in these threads, that the usage **TitoBenito** refers to is not unknown in Britain. It just isn’t usually applied to people whose skin is white. There are plenty of British-born-and-raised “Pakistanis” who will attest to this. ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/46 "2004-03-18T19:08:21Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > As to the point that **Amok** and **TitoBenito** make. Granted, I’m aware that the words mean different things to Americans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean a whole lot more to the nationals of the country. and we don’t care much to see them redefined. 🙂 Granted, I’m aware that the words mean different things to Europeans, but perhaps they need to be aware that they mean something different to the nationals of this country. and we don’t care much to see them redefined. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/47 "2004-03-18T19:10:01Z")
I’ll attest to it too, **ruadh**. I’ve got Irish nationality, but was born here, brought up here, support the English rugby team, and feel a foreigner in Ireland. But there are circumstances where I will describe myself as Irish, when I don’t feel ‘English’ does the situation justice. And I’ll almost always choose Irish over ‘British’, because the latter seems an alien concept to me - I CERTAINLY feel a foreigner in Glasgow. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692/48 "2004-03-18T19:25:36Z")
Greetings. O foreign **Gorilla**! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-irish-st-patrick/234692.md?page=2)